Goodbye red diesel!

[Minchsailor]

A road-legal 1000 litre bowser trailer with pump is under £5,000. If leisure craft start needing to buy road fuel, that could be a viable cost for a filling station to extend their service.

I strongly suspect that something like that will endup happening.

 

[Old Harry]

How have the other EU governments managed this tax issue these past 25 years

 

[maby]

How have the other EU governments managed this tax issue these past 25 years

I don't think they have, have they? Commercial users can buy tax rebated marked fuel. Leisure users can't - and other EU governments don't feel any obligation to find a solution for them if they can't find an acceptable source of unmarked fuel. Geography may make this less of a problem - I suspect that there are fewer leisure sailors out of range of unmarked fuel supplies in the rest of the EU than there are in the UK with its long northern sparsely populated areas. Equally, I suspect that the scale of the real problem in the UK is quite a lot less than is presented by the RYA and other interest groups. Undoubtedly, there are sailors around the north of England and Scotland who will have difficulty buying legal fuel, but I think it is likely that the numbers are small. I would think that more than 90% of the leisure boats in the UK are moored somewhere between Poole and Felixstowe - and could be served by a handful of suitably equipped marinas without too much inconvenience.

 

[NormanS]

I don't think they have, have they? Commercial users can buy tax rebated marked fuel. Leisure users can't - and other EU governments don't feel any obligation to find a solution for them if they can't find an acceptable source of unmarked fuel. Geography may make this less of a problem - I suspect that there are fewer leisure sailors out of range of unmarked fuel supplies in the rest of the EU than there are in the UK with its long northern sparsely populated areas. Equally, I suspect that the scale of the real problem in the UK is quite a lot less than is presented by the RYA and other interest groups. Undoubtedly, there are sailors around the north of England and Scotland who will have difficulty buying legal fuel, but I think it is likely that the numbers are small. I would think that more than 90% of the leisure boats in the UK are moored somewhere between Poole and Felixstowe - and could be served by a handful of suitably equipped marinas without too much inconvenience.

Oh well, that's alright then.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Oh well, that's alright then.

Yep :encouragement:

 

[Graham376]

I suspect that there are fewer leisure sailors out of range of unmarked fuel supplies in the rest of the EU than there are in the UK with its long northern sparsely populated areas.

Not the case here, I have 4 - 5 hour sail from the mooring to the nearest marina with leisure diesel. Not a problem as I just fill a couple of 25L cans up at a garage and dinghy it to the boat.

 

[duncan99210]

I’ve not found a problem in Europe getting fuel. Either there’s two pumps where the size of the commercial fleet justifies it or there’s the one pump selling white diesel. Where there isn’t a fuel berth, many of the local petrol stations have a small tanker which does quayside deliveries. Final fallback is a 20 can, a folding trolly and a healthy walk.

 

[Daydream believer]

TBH I really can’t see what the fuss is about. Much simpler to just make all diesel white and give the tax allowance to those who are entitled to it, fishermen, farmers and whoever else.

So you would ignore all the small traders who come under the VAT threshold and so are not registered for VAT ( what is current threshold ? Circa £80k?) also canal boat livaboards etc who use red for heating. It is not just crab fishermen it is small builders as well who might operate ,say, a small digger or dumper. I suspect that there are many other sole traders out there using red diesel who are not registered
How do you compensate these people?
whilst vat seems the best option it may not be possible. Thus year end accounts will involve additional work and confusion for many

 

[Old Harry]

So you would ignore all the small traders who come under the VAT threshold and so are not registered for VAT ( what is current threshold ? Circa £80k?) also canal boat livaboards etc who use red for heating. It is not just crab fishermen it is small builders as well who might operate ,say, a small digger or dumper. I suspect that there are many other sole traders out there using red diesel who are not registered
How do you compensate these people?
whilst vat seems the best option it may not be possible. Thus year end accounts will involve additional work and confusion for many

How far would a small builder need to travel to obtain red fuel, not readily available is it

 

[Biggles Wader]

So you would ignore all the small traders who come under the VAT threshold and so are not registered for VAT ( what is current threshold ? Circa £80k?) also canal boat livaboards etc who use red for heating. It is not just crab fishermen it is small builders as well who might operate ,say, a small digger or dumper. I suspect that there are many other sole traders out there using red diesel who are not registered
How do you compensate these people?
whilst vat seems the best option it may not be possible. Thus year end accounts will involve additional work and confusion for many

Not VAT, the fuel duty could be reclaimed by those who have a genuine claim to not be paying it. That is how plenty of other tax allowances work. VAT cant be reclaimed by those who are under the threshold in any other case anyway so why should fuel be different?

 

[lw395]

How far would a small builder need to travel to obtain red fuel, not readily available is it

Yes it is readily available.
In rural areas, a lot of garages sell it, particularly where there are smallholdings.
If you want 500 litres, which is easy to get through if you're working a JCB, people will deliver it.
If you only want 20litres to run a cement mixer now and then, it's not worth the time to go out buying red to save a few quid.
But small builders often buy a few cans from a larger builder that they sub for.

Google it, there are plenty of suppliers who will deliver 205 litre drums or bulk.

 

[maby]

So you would ignore all the small traders who come under the VAT threshold and so are not registered for VAT ( what is current threshold ? Circa £80k?) also canal boat livaboards etc who use red for heating....

Red for heating is, and will continue to be, perfectly legal - provided you have a separate tank for it. The problem with the current arrangements is that we are allowed to put marked diesel into a tank that can supply the engine - that is explicitly banned under the EU rules.

 

[Pete7]

So you would ignore all the small traders who come under the VAT threshold and so are not registered for VAT ( what is current threshold ? Circa £80k?) also canal boat livaboards etc who use red for heating. It is not just crab fishermen it is small builders as well who might operate ,say, a small digger or dumper. I suspect that there are many other sole traders out there using red diesel who are not registered
How do you compensate these people?
whilst vat seems the best option it may not be possible. Thus year end accounts will involve additional work and confusion for many

What has this got to do with VAT? You are confusing two different taxes.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...n-mineral-oil-used-on-commercial-vessels-ho50

 

[Balbas]

Not VAT, the fuel duty could be reclaimed by those who have a genuine claim to not be paying it. That is how plenty of other tax allowances work. VAT cant be reclaimed by those who are under the threshold in any other case anyway so why should fuel be different?

The highlighted bit is incorrect. It is possible to voluntarily register for VAT even if below the threshold - and any business with standard rated purchases and zero rated sales (such as farmers and fishermen), or those only selling to VAT registered businesses (say a building subcontractor) often do so.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Yes, I should have said "by those not registered" but the point remains. Fuel duty is just a tax like any other and in the 21st century should be collected and reimbursed digitally rather than by pouring dye into things.

 

[duncan99210]

The need for receipts showing what was delivered to the boat?

That might work for ships but they represent a fairly small part of the red diesel market which covers everything from generators to civil engineering plant to agricultural use and so on. Trying to police that sort of defuse distribution network is next to impossible without dye marking.

 

[JumbleDuck]

That might work for ships but they represent a fairly small part of the red diesel market which covers everything from generators to civil engineering plant to agricultural use and so on. Trying to police that sort of defuse distribution network is next to impossible without dye marking.

Of course, but I'm only suggesting that pay-and-claim-back could work for marine applications. As other have pointed out, when it doesn't have to go into a tank supplying a means of propulsion, red is just fine.

 

[LittleSister]

Then who is going to pay for all this?

The customer. I was querying whether it really was not profitable to have a white diesel pump. Whether the operator collecting the profit was private or public sector is irrelevant.

Geography may make this less of a problem [elsewhere in the EU]- I suspect that there are fewer leisure sailors out of range of unmarked fuel supplies

Sweden and Finland have long northern latitude coastlines. How does it pan out there?

 

[Daydream believer]

How far would a small builder need to travel to obtain red fuel, not readily available is it

My comment was directed to Charlie boy's post in which he suggested that one could "make all diesel white"- so there would not be any red to go & get in his suggestion.
Further more I only used builders (having been one) as an example of a sole trader (which I was not, so had no problem buying 500+ gals at a time).

I am sure there must be other professions that might have uses for red in, say, generators for night lighting ( as another off the cuff thought) Not all ladies can find a street light:encouragement:

 

[STATUE]

Well at least those poor souls will no longer be paying the bedroom tax to subsidise the MOBOs !