Goodbye red diesel!

[dunedin]

+1. And also at quite a number of other fishing harbours.

Well apparently fishing harbours like Mallaig, Ullapool etc are not keen to sell red diesel to yachts from commercial boat pumps, reportedly due to hose size and small volumes most sailing boats take.
Somebody wanting 1,000 plus litres for a Sunseeker may have been able to.

 

[NormanS]

Norman - which ones, I thought I had a full hand?

Berneray and Leverburgh (Sound of Harris), Griminish (North Uist), Miavaig (West Loch Roag), Kirkibost (East Loch Roag). F'rinstance.

Apply to the Western Isles Council for a fuel key.

 

[ShinyShoe]

Well apparently fishing harbours like Mallaig, Ullapool etc are not keen to sell red diesel to yachts from commercial boat pumps, reportedly due to hose size and small volumes most sailing boats take.
Somebody wanting 1,000 plus litres for a Sunseeker may have been able to.

Ullapool Harbour Trust says: "popular with small boat owners who find it an ideal location for refuelling their vessels, replenishing supplies and enjoying the area.... ...40 metre landing pontoon facility on the inside of the pier is available by prior arrangement for taking on provisions, water and fuel". VMH implies its available by pump too. There is a petrol station in the town, so white by can won't be impossible. It reads as though you come ashore by dinghy at the petrol station...

Mallaig The marina website says you can only refuel in the designated fuel berth... ...although it seems unless you are shipping 100's of litres you fuel from the chandlers by can.

Neither of those would concern me too much about white - there are petrol stations there.... if I only need 20 litres (and can work around potential opening times).

There are people who go round in MOBOs (maybe not sunskeekers) but filling up with 300litres at a time. They may well be screwed!

 

[Minchsailor]

Berneray and Leverburgh (Sound of Harris), Griminish (North Uist), Miavaig (West Loch Roag), Kirkibost (East Loch Roag). F'rinstance.

Apply to the Western Isles Council for a fuel key.

Whoops, in haste I forgot the Atlantic coast of the Hebrides - especially as I was there for the last couple of years.

I do have keys from the councils' for both mainland and Hebrides pumps.

 

[lw395]

....

There are people who go round in MOBOs (maybe not sunskeekers) but filling up with 300litres at a time. They may well be screwed!

The question the consultation asks is not 'will these people have a problem?', it is 'how long will it take for the shopkeepers of Scotland to implement a solution?'
Visiting EU yachts already have a problem, they do not want to return home with red in their tanks.
But the Scots correspondents on here seem only concerned with themselves rather than being open to visitors.

 

[Minchsailor]

But the Scots correspondents on here seem only concerned with themselves rather than being open to visitors.

Certainly not. It is just that we have an intimate knowledge of the area and the various constraints which may not be obvious to casual observers.

In fact I have written to the MSP who is Cabinet member with responsibility for tourisim alerting her to the problem visiting yachts will have in obtaining fuel in NW/N Scotland.

 

[ShinyShoe]

You are absolutely right... But... Is it putting off Swedish etc boats coming over? Or do they come and hunt for white or use red and when they go home if challenged say 'scottish red'...

Belgium seems to be the country that cares. I'm sure there will be a few Belgian boats who fancy a trip right around. But there first port of call is likely the south coast where you currently won't get white on a marina... But presumably in years to come would because if you are a marina rather than a harbour your customers will more likely need white.

Only once the south coast sorts it's issues will Scotland matter. Ironically by the Scotland could be back in the EU and England out!!

If you were a commercial operator supplying red currently - how easy will it be to go white and not be supplying pink tainted...?

We have yachts saying they have two year of red to use up. At a cheeky guess they will brim their tank on the last day possible. But presumably they don't drain down their tank to empty before adding white. They add a bit of white as they go. I expect they will have traces of red for 5-10 years! Does the same apply to commercial sellers

Say they have a 10,000 litre tank, let it drop to 2,500 and add 7'500 white. Let that 25% red drop to 2,500 again and add 7,500 white... How dilute do you need to get to not be red? 6.25% , 1.56% . How often do they get deliveries? I can see people filling with white, getting traces of red and probably having more issues than if they can prove they used red in the UK as they wouldn't be able to account for it... ...so does a commercial supplier need to drain the red, flush? And refill. How do they drain the red? Where does it go?

 

[dom]

Say they have a 10,000 litre tank, let it drop to 2,500 and add 7'500 white. Let that 25% red drop to 2,500 again and add 7,500 white... How dilute do you need to get to not be red? 6.25% , 1.56% . How often do they get deliveries? I can see people filling with white, getting traces of red and probably having more issues than if they can prove they used red in the UK as they wouldn't be able to account for it... ...so does a commercial supplier need to drain the red, flush? And refill. How do they drain the red? Where does it go?

I guess it depends on the customs deal finally agreed. The U.K. may simply switch to another dye, in which case enforcement could be immediate.

All we know for sure is that policymakers and civil servants won’t care about this until the important stuff is sorted!

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

You are absolutely right... But... Is it putting off Swedish etc boats coming over? Or do they come and hunt for white or use red and when they go home if challenged say 'scottish red'...

Belgium seems to be the country that cares. I'm sure there will be a few Belgian boats who fancy a trip right around. But there first port of call is likely the south coast where you currently won't get white on a marina... But presumably in years to come would because if you are a marina rather than a harbour your customers will more likely need white.

Only once the south coast sorts it's issues will Scotland matter. Ironically by the Scotland could be back in the EU and England out!!

If you were a commercial operator supplying red currently - how easy will it be to go white and not be supplying pink tainted...?

We have yachts saying they have two year of red to use up. At a cheeky guess they will brim their tank on the last day possible. But presumably they don't drain down their tank to empty before adding white. They add a bit of white as they go. I expect they will have traces of red for 5-10 years! Does the same apply to commercial sellers

Say they have a 10,000 litre tank, let it drop to 2,500 and add 7'500 white. Let that 25% red drop to 2,500 again and add 7,500 white... How dilute do you need to get to not be red? 6.25% , 1.56% . How often do they get deliveries? I can see people filling with white, getting traces of red and probably having more issues than if they can prove they used red in the UK as they wouldn't be able to account for it... ...so does a commercial supplier need to drain the red, flush? And refill. How do they drain the red? Where does it go?

With regard to contaminated tanks and bowsers etc..I think the testing devices can find forensic-level, tiny microcsopic traces of the marker used in red diesel, but the level actually permitted is set by legislation.
Could the law be arranged so the level of marker permitted could be pragmatically tapered down over 5 years, or some such arrangement? Technically yes but it might strain the common sense of the 98,000 civil servants involved in any decision-making..

 

[Minchsailor]

You are absolutely right... But... Is it putting off Swedish etc boats coming over? Or do they come and hunt for white or use red and when they go home if challenged say 'scottish red'...

Belgium seems to be the country that cares. I'm sure there will be a few Belgian boats who fancy a trip right around. But there first port of call is likely the south coast where you currently won't get white on a marina... But presumably in years to come would because if you are a marina rather than a harbour your customers will more likely need white.

Only once the south coast sorts it's issues will Scotland matter. Ironically by the Scotland could be back in the EU and England out!!

Swedish and Norwegian yachts are pretty common; German, Dutch and French less so.

I haven't heard the Scandinavians making an adverse comments about filling up with red.

My own experiences of going 'foreign' these days (Norway/Faroes/Iceland) are that the custom officers are far more interested in an extra bottle of gin than the colour of diesel in the tank.

As to your comments about shore tanks being converted to white. We do things differently up here. Shore infrastructure is geared towards the commercial shipping industry; yachts are (friendly) helped. For instance, take getting fuel at Lochinver. I will get my 80-100 lires from a pump that was last used for an Atlantic trawler that took over 50,000 l. There is no way that sort of facility is going to be converted to white for the comparitively few yachties convenience (and Lochinver is a harbour which is encouraging yachts).

However, being English, I have great admiration for the people of Scotland who live in the isolated areas in finding solutions to problems, and now it has been flagged that white diesel is a requirement, I have every confidence that some sort of solution will be found, it just might not be what we are expecting!

 

[fisherman]

I think the case is that a trace of red in a road vehicle is illegal, never has been allowed, but a yacht will be able to claim trace present from legal times.
In Newlyn they won’t sell red to the leisure boats, bulk or cans.

 

[GTom]

Swedish and Norwegian yachts are pretty common; German, Dutch and French less so.

I haven't heard the Scandinavians making an adverse comments about filling up with red.

My own experiences of going 'foreign' these days (Norway/Faroes/Iceland) are that the custom officers are far more interested in an extra bottle of gin than the colour of diesel in the tank.

Would be useful to create a map, where remains of red in your tank will sink your wallet. The French used to be happy if you presented them a receipt from the pump, I don't know if it's still the case. No idea of the Spanish/Portugese, in case someone is planning a longer shot.

 

[lw395]

With regard to contaminated tanks and bowsers etc..I think the testing devices can find forensic-level, tiny microcsopic traces of the marker used in red diesel, but the level actually permitted is set by legislation.
Could the law be arranged so the level of marker permitted could be pragmatically tapered down over 5 years, or some such arrangement? Technically yes but it might strain the common sense of the 98,000 civil servants involved in any decision-making..

You're over-thinking this.
Fuel sellers need to clean their tanks periodically.
Yacht tanks should be emptied and cleaned now and then.
There is a standard test for the euromarker which sets a small % level of 'red' in 'white'.
But once the UK stops flogging red diesel to yachts, the need for enforcement will be much reduced.

I suspect a minority of yachtowners who foolishly store diesel which they will take years to use may have a problem.
I'm sure a minority will abuse any 'amnesty' period by continuing to buy red either via commercial marine sources or agriculture or construction industry.
Small users don't have a problem, they can buy fom the motor trade.
Big users only need a certain number of suppliers at key marinas or can arrange bowser deliveries.
People in between may have to plan better, adjust their use, or in the limit might find certain types of boat, in certain places might be inconvenient.

Normally when I sail West, I think it's nice to know I can get fuel in say Weymouth, Brixham, Dart, Salcombe, Plymouth, Fowey, Fal, Penzance. Back in the day when I had a small yacht with a 25 litre tank, I could have found it very inconvenient not to know I could get fuel in all those places. These days, with a more reasonable tank, it would not matter if there were many less outlets, so long as I knew what the game was.

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

I think the case is that a trace of red in a road vehicle is illegal, never has been allowed, but a yacht will be able to claim trace present from legal times.
In Newlyn they won’t sell red to the leisure boats, bulk or cans.

Aha that makes sense.

 

[Ohlin Karcher]

You're over-thinking this.
Fuel sellers need to clean their tanks periodically.
Yacht tanks should be emptied and cleaned now and then.
There is a standard test for the euromarker which sets a small % level of 'red' in 'white'.
But once the UK stops flogging red diesel to yachts, the need for enforcement will be much reduced.

I suspect a minority of yachtowners who foolishly store diesel which they will take years to use may have a problem.
I'm sure a minority will abuse any 'amnesty' period by continuing to buy red either via commercial marine sources or agriculture or construction industry.
Small users don't have a problem, they can buy fom the motor trade.
Big users only need a certain number of suppliers at key marinas or can arrange bowser deliveries.
People in between may have to plan better, adjust their use, or in the limit might find certain types of boat, in certain places might be inconvenient.

Normally when I sail West, I think it's nice to know I can get fuel in say Weymouth, Brixham, Dart, Salcombe, Plymouth, Fowey, Fal, Penzance. Back in the day when I had a small yacht with a 25 litre tank, I could have found it very inconvenient not to know I could get fuel in all those places. These days, with a more reasonable tank, it would not matter if there were many less outlets, so long as I knew what the game was.

Very interesting.

 

[Graham376]

Would be useful to create a map, where remains of red in your tank will sink your wallet. The French used to be happy if you presented them a receipt from the pump, I don't know if it's still the case. No idea of the Spanish/Portugese, in case someone is planning a longer shot.

Never heard of a visitor having their tank dipped in Portugal but it would be unwise to have red in cans as boat inspections sometimes happen.

 

[Minchsailor]

In Newlyn they won’t sell red to the leisure boats, bulk or cans.

There is a boat yard in the Oban area, which only has a very small volume going to commercial users; the majority to yotties, which has converted it's tank to white.

 

[fisherman]

There is a boat yard in the Oban area, which only has a very small volume going to commercial users; the majority to yotties, which has converted it's tank to white.

That's OK, the commercial fishermen are able to claim back road duty as well as the existing fuel duty, about 11p/litre on red. Same as they do on petrol.

 

[JumbleDuck]

2. If we ban red for leisure - what happens in Scotland where you can travel 100s of miles between places you can even get red. Where those providers of Red are usually for commercial fishing boats etc and so have no real desire to install a white tank, white pump etc for £20 worth to a WAFI... How do we think out circum-navigation plans will be affected? Should I start planning a bike trailer that can take a couple of jerry cans?

This is often claimed, but I am not convinced. In Mallaig, for example, red diesel is delivered to the pontoons in plastic containers by a company which also sells white diesel. Difficulty of changing: nil. I am pretty sure that if a demand arose for selling white diesel to boats, the market would respond by meeting it.

 

[robertj]

will red diesel be available and allowed unfer the new legislation if you are using your yacht for commercial purposes, i.e. skippered charters?