Goodbye red diesel!

[JumbleDuck]

I think the case is that a trace of red in a road vehicle is illegal, never has been allowed ...

It was allowed for a brief period after the 2000 fuel protests, to get things moving again.

 

[GTom]

Never heard of a visitor having their tank dipped in Portugal but it would be unwise to have red in cans as boat inspections sometimes happen.

Make sense and perfectly doable. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Old Harry]

Swedish and Norwegian yachts are pretty common; German, Dutch and French less so.

I haven't heard the Scandinavians making an adverse comments about filling up with red.

My own experiences of going 'foreign' these days (Norway/Faroes/Iceland) are that the custom officers are far more interested in an extra bottle of gin than the colour of diesel in the tank.

As to your comments about shore tanks being converted to white. We do things differently up here. Shore infrastructure is geared towards the commercial shipping industry; yachts are (friendly) helped. For instance, take getting fuel at Lochinver. I will get my 80-100 lires from a pump that was last used for an Atlantic trawler that took over 50,000 l. There is no way that sort of facility is going to be converted to white for the comparitively few yachties convenience (and Lochinver is a harbour which is encouraging yachts).

However, being English, I have great admiration for the people of Scotland who live in the isolated areas in finding solutions to problems, and now it has been flagged that white diesel is a requirement, I have every confidence that some sort of solution will be found, it just might not be what we are expecting!

British Commercial HGVs claim vat back via tax / vat returns, so why not fishermen too

 

[Malish]

British Commercial HGVs claim vat back via tax / vat returns, so why not fishermen too

as confirmed by Fisherman, post #138

 

[duncan99210]

The level of dye in a fuel system has to exceed a set limit before an offence is committed. I’m not sure of the level (nor am I going to spend time trying to google it...) but it’s pretty reasonable. So, once red diesel is no longer available to the leisure market, there’ll be a grace period where you’ll be able to use the marked diesel in your tanks without fear of prosecution. Using white diesel during this period will dilute the dye quite rapidly until it falls below the threshold. Even then, you’ll have a reasonable defence of using up old stock in the tanks. If you keep a log, you’d be able to demonstrate your diesel usage proving that what’s in your tanks matches your story.
HMRC will, frankly, not be interested in the majority of sailing boats. Their focus will be on the mobo community using several hundreds of litres every time they fill up; that’s where the Treasury will be taking a hit worth chasing not folks using a few tens of litres a year.

 

[fisherman]

British Commercial HGVs claim vat back via tax / vat returns, so why not fishermen too

If registered for VAT, and most fishermen are, claim vat on vat returns and excise duty (11.14p/litre on red) via the Mineral Oils reclaim, rates here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...arbon-oils/excise-duty-hydrocarbon-oils-rates

 

[Graham376]

If registered for VAT, and most fishermen are, claim vat on vat returns and excise duty (11.14p/litre on red) via the Mineral Oils reclaim, rates here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...arbon-oils/excise-duty-hydrocarbon-oils-rates

No doubt they'll all be running diesel cars & vans as well once the red goes, I would

 

[lw395]

No doubt they'll all be running diesel cars & vans as well once the red goes, I would

Which is why the red won't go.

 

[Charlie Boy]

TBH I really can’t see what the fuss is about. Much simpler to just make all diesel white and give the tax allowance to those who are entitled to it, fishermen, farmers and whoever else.

 

[lw395]

TBH I really can’t see what the fuss is about. Much simpler to just make all diesel white and give the tax allowance to those who are entitled to it, fishermen, farmers and whoever else.

That is open to massive fraud. Hence the practice of dying rebated fuel. That just is not going to change. Absolutely no chance.

 

[duncan99210]

TBH I really can’t see what the fuss is about. Much simpler to just make all diesel white and give the tax allowance to those who are entitled to it, fishermen, farmers and whoever else.

Then what’s to stop them claiming for far more than they use in their boats and selling it on? That’s why diesel is marked to prevent that sort of fraud.

 

[JumbleDuck]

That is open to massive fraud. Hence the practice of dying rebated fuel. That just is not going to change. Absolutely no chance.

There is no need for change, because it's already possible. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fuel-duty-reliefs

 

[JumbleDuck]

Then what’s to stop them claiming for far more than they use in their boats and selling it on?

The need for receipts showing what was delivered to the boat?

 

[LittleSister]

Didn't someone (Bru?) say on another thread that the cost of a modest sized tank and metered hose was about £500? Even doubling that to cover installation etc. would seem not prohibitive for many places as an addition to any high volume red facility for commercial vessels. Quite a few continental harbours seem to have automated self-service pumps for small vessels these days.

Perhaps worth you replying to the consultation to add your voice to the need for a sensible transition period.

How many years has the UK had so far to get its house in order? My point being that the UK did nothing in the transition period it signed up to originally, which has long expired. (Why does that sound familiar? )

 

[lw395]

There is no need for change, because it's already possible. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/fuel-duty-reliefs

The last paragraph of that:
Rebated oils

If you’re a fuel producer or distributor, you may be able to pay lower rates of duty on rebated oils (known as controlled oils) such as red diesel and marked kerosene. These oils are not to be used as road fuels.

To pay lower rates, you’ll need to be approved by HMRC as a Registered Dealer in Controlled Oils (RDCO). As an RDCO you’ll have additional responsibilities, including:

marking them, or having them marked
restrictions on who you supply them to
the type and quantity you supply
taking sensible and reasonable steps to prevent criminals gaining them
keeping detailed records
providing regular returns to HMRC about the fuel you supply

Published 9 November 2009
HMRC and the EU are just not going to allow the black market to become awash with untaxed white diesel.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Of course there would be fraud, there always is, but the point is that if we did away with dyed fuel then all fuel would be taxed and it would be up to those with a very good reason to claim the tax back. It would be up to HMRC to evaluate whether some were claiming more back than they had any right to just like all sorts of other tax returns and evaluations. In an age where we are heading towards electronic customs checks and "technical solutions" to border crossings we really should be able to deal with tax rebates for farmers and fishermen.

 

[Minchsailor]

Didn't someone (Bru?) say on another thread that the cost of a modest sized tank and metered hose was about £500? Even doubling that to cover installation etc. would seem not prohibitive for many places as an addition to any high volume red facility for commercial vessels.miliar?

I wish we could get rid of this idea that an additional tank costs only £500/1000/1500, or whatever.

A tank has to be if sufficient size to make wholesale deliveries economic, it will need planing permission, risk assessment, spillage control measures, approval by EA/SEPA (and if they can complicate things, they will) and probably whole raft of other things I have't thought off.

Then who is going to pay for all this? In my area virtually all the alongside facilities are council owned, and when they are cutting subsides to local bus services, social care for the elderly (and a whole host of other politically sensitive things) there is no way they spend money to keep 'rich yacht' owners happy. It would be suicide.

 

[lw395]

Of course there would be fraud, there always is, but the point is that if we did away with dyed fuel then all fuel would be taxed and it would be up to those with a very good reason to claim the tax back. It would be up to HMRC to evaluate whether some were claiming more back than they had any right to just like all sorts of other tax returns and evaluations. In an age where we are heading towards electronic customs checks and "technical solutions" to border crossings we really should be able to deal with tax rebates for farmers and fishermen.

Maybe so.
But back in reality, the UK gov't has told us what it is consulting on, and that's how long it will take people to adapt to yachts not being allowed red diesel.

 

[JumbleDuck]

The last paragraph of that:
Rebated oils

[deletia]

HMRC and the EU are just not going to allow the black market to become awash with untaxed white diesel.

Indeed not. That's why they would charge full tax and duty and allow commercial users to claim back. Just as they do at the moment.

 

[JumbleDuck]

A tank has to be if sufficient size to make wholesale deliveries economic, it will need planing permission, risk assessment, spillage control measures, approval by EA/SEPA (and if they can complicate things, they will) and probably whole raft of other things I have't thought off.

A road-legal 1000 litre bowser trailer with pump is under £5,000. If leisure craft start needing to buy road fuel, that could be a viable cost for a filling station to extend their service.