gordmac
Well-Known Member
I thought the idea was we had to have white in our tanks?
Goodbye red diesel!
- Thread starter CLB
- Start date
I thought the idea was we had to have white in our tanks?
Richard.C
Well-Known Member
Why couldn't a special license to sell marine diesel be established. All marine diesel becomes white, sold to commercial operators at duty free price and to the rest of us at the current non commercial rates. Licensed sellers need to organise pumps so they can not service road users and any licensed seller caught selling outside of marine use gets a hefty fine.
Momac
Well-Known Member
It is.
But what are people to do if they need fuel and all that is available is red?
Momac
Well-Known Member
I wonder how long it will take to clear the tank and pipes of all traces of the dye and chemicals? I suspect several years in my case as I rarely let the fuel level fall below half before adding fresh fuel.
Blue Sunray
Well-Known Member
Take themselves to one side and give themselves a quiet word about planning?
maby
Well-Known Member
Once we have definitively left the EU, that would be an option, but it contravenes EU directives, so we can't do it now.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Took me about 6 hours to remove the cover from the tank on my Hanse, drain off 45 litres with a small pump attached to an electric drill, wipe the tank out, change the filters & using the bellows (I have one fitted for priming) pump the red out of the fuel lines, put in a few litres of white & run it through
Clean that out, refit the cover & re fill with white.
That was 5-6 years ago & have used white ever since.
So on a yacht it is not such a long job, if one can run the fuel level down, has some cans to collect the old fuel & has a tank access cover they can get to. It is also a good chance to give the tank a clean out & remove any crud.
Different with a large tank on a MOBO though
oldgit
Well-Known Member
Red diesel
Be Interested as to how boaters will justify why derogation should remain under any circumstances
Why should a tiny minority continue to benefit from paying less to enjoy a hobby..
Only white available at all pumps.
Commercial users can simply register for an exemption number to pay a lower commercial rate of tax or their purchases.
All others pay to full duty.
Anybody registered for VAT will already be on the revenue data base.
Be Interested as to how boaters will justify why derogation should remain under any circumstances
Why should a tiny minority continue to benefit from paying less to enjoy a hobby..
Only white available at all pumps.
Commercial users can simply register for an exemption number to pay a lower commercial rate of tax or their purchases.
All others pay to full duty.
Anybody registered for VAT will already be on the revenue data base.
BruceK
Well-Known Member
Re: Red diesel
I dont quite see it that way. I'd like to know where the breakdown spend on collected tax on "marine" fuel duty goes and how much of that is applicable or returned to boating in the same manner that road funding is taken out of taxes earned on forecourt fuel. I agree luxury items get taxed but on the element of ratios here I dont see much marine diesel tax going back into the improvement of govt marine infrastructure nor why it should be taxed at the same rate as road vehicles.
I dont quite see it that way. I'd like to know where the breakdown spend on collected tax on "marine" fuel duty goes and how much of that is applicable or returned to boating in the same manner that road funding is taken out of taxes earned on forecourt fuel. I agree luxury items get taxed but on the element of ratios here I dont see much marine diesel tax going back into the improvement of govt marine infrastructure nor why it should be taxed at the same rate as road vehicles.
gordmac
Well-Known Member
That is what I was wondering.
Kola
Well-Known Member
Lot's of places in Scotland where you can ONLY get Red...
oldgit
Well-Known Member
Re: Red diesel
Essentially to encourage food production after the war, farmers and fishermen were given a lower rate fuel to help reduce the food imports we could so barely afford.
Somewhere along the line it became useful sales point for bulders of pleasure boats, who did not give a hang about food production and curiously could never quite find enough ink to mention fuel economy in their boat sales brochures.
With red diesel so cheap nobody cared and boaters probably hoped that this little perk would not come to the attention of the public.
Something designed to help the owner of a grey Fergie plough a field is being used to power a pair of 500HP green monsters across the Solent at 25 knots.
Essentially to encourage food production after the war, farmers and fishermen were given a lower rate fuel to help reduce the food imports we could so barely afford.
Somewhere along the line it became useful sales point for bulders of pleasure boats, who did not give a hang about food production and curiously could never quite find enough ink to mention fuel economy in their boat sales brochures.
With red diesel so cheap nobody cared and boaters probably hoped that this little perk would not come to the attention of the public.
Something designed to help the owner of a grey Fergie plough a field is being used to power a pair of 500HP green monsters across the Solent at 25 knots.
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BruceK
Well-Known Member
Re: Red diesel
ermm, I think the concession to use red diesel for boats came a helluva long time after the war and was no oversight. I guess you are trolling for a rise again.
OUTBOARDS!
There you go, never let it be said I wouldn't give an old dog a bone :encouragement:
ermm, I think the concession to use red diesel for boats came a helluva long time after the war and was no oversight. I guess you are trolling for a rise again.
OUTBOARDS!
There you go, never let it be said I wouldn't give an old dog a bone :encouragement:
Momac
Well-Known Member
Possibly.
Although there are circumstances such as sea conditions and mechanical issues where more fuel may be consumed than might have been expected.
The inability to refuel simply because the fuel available is red may lead to some journeys becoming impossible. Or worse still people may risk running short on fuel.
oldgit
Well-Known Member
Re: Red diesel
Your actual bone.
https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...all-for-evidence/red-diesel-call-for-evidence
2.1 History
The rebate for gas oil has existed in one form or another since the inception of fuel duty in 1928. This was because fuel duty was intended to be a tax on motoring and gas oil was mainly used for heating.
The government withdrew the rebate for use in road vehicles in 1935 as a result of the development of diesel engine road vehicles. However, the rebate remained in place for all other uses, including those vehicles which already paid a lower rate of vehicle excise duty (VED) because their use of roads was incidental. Tractors and other agricultural machines became “excepted vehicles” that could use the road occasionally but were not classified as “road vehicles”. This avoided imposing additional costs on agriculture. However, the policy justification (that road use was incidental) has, over time, allowed the definition of excepted vehicles to be gradually widened.
In 1959 the entitlement to use rebated gas oil was extended to all vehicles used exclusively off-road, regardless of design, and also to subsidiary engines mounted on road vehicles where these are supplied from a separate fuel tank. In 1961, marking of rebated gas oil was introduced and a positive rate was re-imposed (a full rebate having been introduced in 1947 because of post-war fuel shortages). Since then the red diesel rate has continued to increase, usually, but not always, by the same percentage as the main rate. The red diesel rate has remained constant since 2011 as a result of the 7 year freeze in the main rate of fuel duty.
Ps. Got to fill up tanks this week
Sigh.
Your actual bone.
https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...all-for-evidence/red-diesel-call-for-evidence
2.1 History
The rebate for gas oil has existed in one form or another since the inception of fuel duty in 1928. This was because fuel duty was intended to be a tax on motoring and gas oil was mainly used for heating.
The government withdrew the rebate for use in road vehicles in 1935 as a result of the development of diesel engine road vehicles. However, the rebate remained in place for all other uses, including those vehicles which already paid a lower rate of vehicle excise duty (VED) because their use of roads was incidental. Tractors and other agricultural machines became “excepted vehicles” that could use the road occasionally but were not classified as “road vehicles”. This avoided imposing additional costs on agriculture. However, the policy justification (that road use was incidental) has, over time, allowed the definition of excepted vehicles to be gradually widened.
In 1959 the entitlement to use rebated gas oil was extended to all vehicles used exclusively off-road, regardless of design, and also to subsidiary engines mounted on road vehicles where these are supplied from a separate fuel tank. In 1961, marking of rebated gas oil was introduced and a positive rate was re-imposed (a full rebate having been introduced in 1947 because of post-war fuel shortages). Since then the red diesel rate has continued to increase, usually, but not always, by the same percentage as the main rate. The red diesel rate has remained constant since 2011 as a result of the 7 year freeze in the main rate of fuel duty.
Ps. Got to fill up tanks this week
Sigh.
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asteven221
Well-Known Member
Re: Red diesel
Sorry I have not has a chance to read the whole thread yet so apologies if I am repeating a previous post.
Surely the simple way to solve all the practical problems of moving to white diesel is just to ban (illegal) the sale of red diesel from a given date and everyone just pays the full price? Same as we do with petrol. Qualifying companies can reclaim the VAT (and any other tax relief they can qualify for) via the normal processes. For the rest of us we just have to stump up the full price.
If red diesel is unavailable and illegal, then surely it doesn't matter if red traces are left in tanks, be it marinas or in our boats. If someone has red diesel in the tank years following the banning date, then so what? Obviously it must be old diesel purchased before the ban date and as such not an issue for the authorities. All the red diesel in circulation will naturally vanish in time. Some might want to bunker a few gallons, but again so what. They will have to use it some time and then it's gone for good.
It sounds so simple. I have probably missed something!
Sorry I have not has a chance to read the whole thread yet so apologies if I am repeating a previous post.
Surely the simple way to solve all the practical problems of moving to white diesel is just to ban (illegal) the sale of red diesel from a given date and everyone just pays the full price? Same as we do with petrol. Qualifying companies can reclaim the VAT (and any other tax relief they can qualify for) via the normal processes. For the rest of us we just have to stump up the full price.
If red diesel is unavailable and illegal, then surely it doesn't matter if red traces are left in tanks, be it marinas or in our boats. If someone has red diesel in the tank years following the banning date, then so what? Obviously it must be old diesel purchased before the ban date and as such not an issue for the authorities. All the red diesel in circulation will naturally vanish in time. Some might want to bunker a few gallons, but again so what. They will have to use it some time and then it's gone for good.
It sounds so simple. I have probably missed something!
James L
Well-Known Member
Re: Red diesel
I think the bit you've missed is the black (or should I say white) market that would develop in unmarked diesel, where fishing boats and farmers will suddenly double or triple their annual usage and sell off the surplus.
Sorry I have not has a chance to read the whole thread yet so apologies if I am repeating a previous post.
Surely the simple way to solve all the practical problems of moving to white diesel is just to ban (illegal) the sale of red diesel from a given date and everyone just pays the full price? Same as we do with petrol. Qualifying companies can reclaim the VAT (and any other tax relief they can qualify for) via the normal processes. For the rest of us we just have to stump up the full price.
If red diesel is unavailable and illegal, then surely it doesn't matter if red traces are left in tanks, be it marinas or in our boats. If someone has red diesel in the tank years following the banning date, then so what? Obviously it must be old diesel purchased before the ban date and as such not an issue for the authorities. All the red diesel in circulation will naturally vanish in time. Some might want to bunker a few gallons, but again so what. They will have to use it some time and then it's gone for good.
It sounds so simple. I have probably missed something!
I think the bit you've missed is the black (or should I say white) market that would develop in unmarked diesel, where fishing boats and farmers will suddenly double or triple their annual usage and sell off the surplus.
petem
Well-Known Member
Re: Red diesel
If anyone is interested, we moved from the UK to the Med a couple of seasons ago and it only took around three fill-ups to remove the visible presence of the red dye in the fuel.
If anyone is interested, we moved from the UK to the Med a couple of seasons ago and it only took around three fill-ups to remove the visible presence of the red dye in the fuel.
maby
Well-Known Member
Re: Red diesel
That pretty much corresponds with the calculation I posted a couple of years ago.
That pretty much corresponds with the calculation I posted a couple of years ago.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Re: Red diesel
What will happen is that there will be a black market in red fuel. (As an aside one can run household heating fuel in site dumpers etc, I know because I have done it).
Plus, red should still be available to avoid the extra paperwork for the host of users who should be able to use cheap fuel, Ie farmers, fishermen,construction sites, power generators & other off road users. The problem is that fraud could easily take place on a large scale if some were able to claim rebates.
Perhaps it is better just to let them have it cheaper in the first place. So a case exists to keep red fuel.
It is the presence of red dye that the Belgians object to as it demonstrates that red fuel has been used where it should not have been. If we start giving rebates for white fuel, how will they know that the fuel we are using has not been rebated. Will that cause problems with the EU ( until we leave, if we do)?
I saw a scrap dealer fill his MOBO up with a few hundred litres of fuel & the invoice was made to his scrap company.( perfectly OK if the company owned the boat, so the seller had no issues) Can you guess where that invoice went?
Sorry I have not has a chance to read the whole thread yet so apologies if I am repeating a previous post.
Surely the simple way to solve all the practical problems of moving to white diesel is just to ban (illegal) the sale of red diesel from a given date and everyone just pays the full price? Same as we do with petrol. Qualifying companies can reclaim the VAT (and any other tax relief they can qualify for) via the normal processes. For the rest of us we just have to stump up the full price.
If red diesel is unavailable and illegal, then surely it doesn't matter if red traces are left in tanks, be it marinas or in our boats. If someone has red diesel in the tank years following the banning date, then so what? Obviously it must be old diesel purchased before the ban date and as such not an issue for the authorities. All the red diesel in circulation will naturally vanish in time. Some might want to bunker a few gallons, but again so what. They will have to use it some time and then it's gone for good.
It sounds so simple. I have probably missed something!
What will happen is that there will be a black market in red fuel. (As an aside one can run household heating fuel in site dumpers etc, I know because I have done it).
Plus, red should still be available to avoid the extra paperwork for the host of users who should be able to use cheap fuel, Ie farmers, fishermen,construction sites, power generators & other off road users. The problem is that fraud could easily take place on a large scale if some were able to claim rebates.
Perhaps it is better just to let them have it cheaper in the first place. So a case exists to keep red fuel.
It is the presence of red dye that the Belgians object to as it demonstrates that red fuel has been used where it should not have been. If we start giving rebates for white fuel, how will they know that the fuel we are using has not been rebated. Will that cause problems with the EU ( until we leave, if we do)?
I saw a scrap dealer fill his MOBO up with a few hundred litres of fuel & the invoice was made to his scrap company.( perfectly OK if the company owned the boat, so the seller had no issues) Can you guess where that invoice went?
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