Giving assistance or calling for help

[Ubergeekian]

This relates to an article I have just been reading in a PBO, but it seems a wee bit more relevant to the YM forum...

The piece is called "Surviving a Dismasting" and it's in the April 2009 edition. It's an interesting tale of a chap who was out racing in Cardigan Bay in his Super Seal when the mast went over the side, and what followed. Now, please don't think that this is intended as any criticism of him - not in the least. What brought me up like a rake in the face was this:

Were we in imminent danger? Well, only if another yacht hit us - and they were coming up fast from behind. So we shouted and waved as much as possible to ensure they took evasive action as well as noticing our plight.

No yacht stopped and stood by, but then they were all struggling themselves and we were confident that at least one had called for help

Am I alone in finding this quite unacceptable? You see someone undergo a major accident in a yacht and you don't stop to help. or hang around in case assistance is required? You just call the safety boat, oops, sorry, lifeboat and get on with the race, because that's the most important thing?

In this case the crew were both competent and lucky: the mast didn't go through the side and they were able to lash it along and over the boat, until help from a naval ship and then the lifeboat arrived. But supposing they hadn't been so lucky? Was it really acceptable for everybody else to bugger off and assume that the lifeboat would be in time to take care of everything?

It was clearly a blowy day, but I refuse to believe that nobody in the fleet could wait around for half an hour, just in case. To be frank, I'm horrified at the attitude and behaviour described. I have always told non-sailing friends that the camaraderie of the sea means that no sailor would ever fail to assist another, but this has shaken my faith. It doesn't seem morally to be any distance at all from refusing to help dying climbers on your way up Everest.

 

[Cerddinen]

I think you are being a little harsh. I have no doubt that if the Super Seal had requested help then any number of boats would have stopped - racing or not. Since no request was made it seems quite legitimate to continue racing. I also expect that the race was short so the fleet would have been close by if any emergency call were made.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I think you are being a little harsh. I have no doubt that if the Super Seal had requested help then any number of boats would have stopped - racing or not. Since no request was made it seems quite legitimate to continue racing.

They lost their VHF in the dismasting, which is why they had to shout and wave at other boats ... though I'd have expected them to notice that a boat in front had lost its mast. Location was "a good few miles out to sea from Aberaeron".

If you were crossing the channel and saw a yacht on fire ahead of you, but heard nothing on the VHF, would you think "Oh, they must be OK, they haven't asked for help" and waltz past? I wouldn't, and I bet you wouldn't. I have my doubts about the Cardigan Bay club racers though ...

 

[KellysEye]

>No yacht stopped and stood by

In Antigua Sailing Week one year a yacht in the cruising division caught fire (it sank quite quickly). They contacted Race Control who said 'we take it you're retiring then?'

Immediately after that response RC put out a call asking boats to help. A number of boats stopped to help. One guy who was picked up was told that the yacht was going to continue the race. He promptly jumped off to be picked by someone who would take him ashore.

 

[Woodlouse]

It depends on what they were shouting at the passing yachts really. If they were shouting for help then people should have stopped to help them. If they were shouting something along the lines of 'don't worry about us, but could you give the coastguard a call' then I can understand why a race fleet didn't stand by them.

 

[flaming]

It depends on what they were shouting at the passing yachts really. If they were shouting for help then people should have stopped to help them. If they were shouting something along the lines of 'don't worry about us, but could you give the coastguard a call' then I can understand why a race fleet didn't stand by them.

Exactly. I've altered course towards a dismasted boat, got confirmation that they were ok then got on with the race.

Dismastings are fortunately relatively rare, but when you race a lot you do see a few. It's pretty obvious when assistance is needed, after all the ISAF safety rules mandate the carrying of the right tools to deal with a dismasting, (including secondary VHF btw) so unless there is an injury, a big hole in the hull, or they are about to be swept ashore, the crew of the dismasted boat are actually the best placed to deal with it.

 

[rivonia]

Interesting reading all the above comments.. All presumptious.

Unless you were there or have first hand knowledge 'Lay Off'

Peter

 

[sailaboutvic]

I can only speak for myself , and I would had gone over and see if they needed any help, just like i did this year pulling a yacht off the debham bar and as i have done many times before .

but even in the yachting world we seen to be living more and more in a world of I'm ok jack .

 

[Ubergeekian]

Interesting reading all the above comments.. All presumptious.

Unless you were there or have first hand knowledge 'Lay Off'

I would very much like to hear from someone who was there, so they could explain why nobody in the fleet stayed to help.

 

[bbg]

Don't need to stop unless they ask you to

I'm with Flaming on this. If the other boats were passing close enough to be hailed, they were close enough to have known whether the dismasted boat was calling for help.

What I find quite surprising is the unspoken implication that the boats ought to have stood by without being asked to do so. Personally I would like to think I would have gone close enough to ask "Do you require assistance?", and then race on if the answer were no. And stay and provide assistance if the answer were yes. If I were the eighth boat going past, and I had seen other boats alter course then continue, I might be inclined not to go over and check.

 

[mike489]

Irish Sea Dismasting

A number of years ago we were dismasted in an Irish Sea race, and we didn't call for help, having lost our VHF and also being extremely busy trying to sort out the mess, cutting away the rig etc.

We were convinced that we were OK and didn't feel the need for any asistance, fortunately another boat came along and insisted that they stay with us and accompany us to safety. After that two things happened which could have been very serious. As we cut away the mast if hung lower and lower in the water and started to make very unpleasant noises against the hull as we rolled in the waves, we redoubled our efforts to dump the mast and fortunately chopped it away before it came to join us in the saloon.

After clearing away all the ropes and ensuring there was nothing over the side we started the engine and made for home - a journey of over 25miles, in company with our saviour. After about 10 miles we heard a terrible noise and the engine nearly stalled, the revs then picked up and we carried on for the last 15miles with a lee shore close by and about 25knots of wind.

We arrived safely home and did not require the asistance of our friend, but we were so close to losing the boat that we have ever after been very grateful to him. He also communicated on our behalf with the Coastguard and avoided a lifeboat launch.

(When the boat was lifted out the next day there was about 10feet of thick rope around the p-bracket - how lucky were we?)

So the moral of this tale is they might think they are OK but they may be wrong....

 

[snooks]

Were we in imminent danger? Well, only if another yacht hit us - and they were coming up fast from behind. So we shouted and waved as much as possible and they took evasive action as well as noticing our plight.

No yacht stopped and stood by, but then they were all struggling themselves and we were confident that at least one had called for help

I remember reading the article, so went back a reread it

What was actually written in the magazine was :

So we shouted and waved as much as possible to ensure they took evasive action as well as noticing our plight.

So they were waving and shouting to make sure other boats saw them, not to ask for assistance or help

I think the key thing to remember is that all the boats (including the dismasted boat) were racing. This does put a different spin on the whole story.

It's not like they were a cruising boat in difficulty as the racing fleet sailed on by.

You can't be sure that none of the boat that sailed past didn't offer assistance...and that's where the problem of this speculation lies

 

[snooks]

It doesn't seem morally to be any distance at all from refusing to help dying climbers on your way up Everest.

Doesn't it get to a stage on Everest when helping another climber ends both your lives, and on the final ascent to the summit it is literally every man (or woman) for themselves.

I dunno I saw summut on TV about climbing Everest, and I found it shocking that there were dead bodies left up there, along with frozen piles of sick and poo...it's what climbers do apparently - Well according to TV anyway

I think that is a world away from the situation in PBO, and comparing the two without all the facts would be like calling a lilo a blue water cruiser!

 

[flaming]

They lost their VHF in the dismasting, which is why they had to shout and wave at other boats ... though I'd have expected them to notice that a boat in front had lost its mast. Location was "a good few miles out to sea from Aberaeron".

If you were crossing the channel and saw a yacht on fire ahead of you, but heard nothing on the VHF, would you think "Oh, they must be OK, they haven't asked for help" and waltz past? I wouldn't, and I bet you wouldn't. I have my doubts about the Cardigan Bay club racers though ...

Rather inflamitory - a yacht on fire is very different from a dismasted yacht. I don't know of anyone who would sail past a yacht on fire.

It does also make a huge difference that this was a racing incident. If I, when racing or cruising, came across a cruising boat lacking a mast I would absolutely stop and render any assistance I was able to. There is however a difference in assuption of the level of ability to cope with such an incident when you are talking about a racing boat.

I draw your attention to two items from the ISAF cat 4 safety regs. Cat 4 is used for inshore racing, and is thus the minimum category that the described race could have been run under.

3.29.
1
The following shall be provided:

e) A hand-held marine VHF transceiver, watertight or with a waterproof
cover. When not in use to be stowed in a grab bag or emergency
container (see OSR 4.21)

4.16 Tools and Spare Parts
Tools and spare parts, including effective means to quickly disconnect
or sever the standing rigging from the hull shall be provided.

Which is one reason why there actually is justification for carrying on unless the distress is obvious or the boat in danger of drifting into danger.

The other question is, what assistance do you think you would be able to usefully give to a boat already carrying the means to cut the wreckage free? Especially as you would be nervous of approaching the casualty until they had cut it free in case you get a loose line round your prop.

 

[Ubergeekian]

I'm with Flaming on this. If the other boats were passing close enough to be hailed, they were close enough to have known whether the dismasted boat was calling for help.

What I find quite surprising is the unspoken implication that the boats ought to have stood by without being asked to do so. Personally I would like to think I would have gone close enough to ask "Do you require assistance?", and then race on if the answer were no. And stay and provide assistance if the answer were yes. If I were the eighth boat going past, and I had seen other boats alter course then continue, I might be inclined not to go over and check.

The tone of the article suggested to me that the dismasted vessel did not ask the others to go away. However, that's guesswork on my part and only the author could tell us what really happened.

Nevertheless, if I saw a vessel sustain damage like that several miles offshore I would stick around, even if they said they were fine, until better help arrived. There are an awful lot of things which could go wrong or worse ... and the people on board may not be competent to judge whether they are safe or not.

 

[Ubergeekian]

We arrived safely home and did not require the asistance of our friend, but we were so close to losing the boat that we have ever after been very grateful to him. He also communicated on our behalf with the Coastguard and avoided a lifeboat launch.

Now that's the way to do it!

So the moral of this tale is they might think they are OK but they may be wrong....

It's a fact of life that those who get in trouble are often those least well qualified to assess how much trouble they're in.

 

[Ubergeekian]

What was actually written in the magazine was :

You are quite right, and the misquotation was entirely unintentional on my part. I'll go back and edit it.

I think the key thing to remember is that all the boats (including the dismasted boat) were racing. This does put a different spin on the whole story.

Well, club racing. And I can't really see what difference it makes, Are racers exempt from helping other mariners, or do stricken sailers accept unnecessary death as a price worth paying.?

You can't be sure that none of the boat that sailed past didn't offer assistance...and that's where the problem of this speculation lies

It's pretty clear that he had no communication from them - he just had to hope that one had called out the safety boat.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Doesn't it get to a stage on Everest when helping another climber ends both your lives, and on the final ascent to the summit it is literally every man (or woman) for themselves.

The ethos of modern commercial expeditions seems to be just that: getting to the top is far more important than saving a live ... or even just holding a hand as life ebbs away. I know a couple of old school real mountaineers who consider such behaviour utterly contemptible, so it certain does not seem to be universal in the climbing world.

I think that is a world away from the situation in PBO, and comparing the two without all the facts would be like calling a lilo a blue water cruiser!

I think I'm trying to establish the degree of similarity. Leaving a fellow sailor in potentially severe danger because you want a couple of extra points towards a cup at the annual dinner doesn't seem a million moral miles away from abandoning someone on Everest for a picture of the summit.

Snooks and everybody, I'd be interested to know under what circumstances you would leave a yacht you saw lose its mast. In my case it would only be if they got the rig completely dealt with - cut away or lashed - and started making good headway to a port of refuge and unequivocally said they were all right and seemed competent enough to know. Or if they could go faster than me!

 

[Ubergeekian]

The other question is, what assistance do you think you would be able to usefully give to a boat already carrying the means to cut the wreckage free? Especially as you would be nervous of approaching the casualty until they had cut it free in case you get a loose line round your prop.

I'd think that I might be in a position to pick them up if the mast made a hole in the hull and sank them. Or - if they were offshore, as in this case - relay messages to the shore with my masthead antenna. Or lend them my bolt croppers after they dropped theirs overboard. Or ...

I wouldn't know, though, and that not-knowing is why I would hang around.

 

[snowleopard]

Several times recently I have seen other boats sailing blithely on when there has been a mayday nearby. Impossible to tell if they weren't monitoring ch 16 or simply decided it was someone else's problem.