Gas Safe and Flame Out Devices

langstonelayabout

langstonelayabout

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I’m buying a late 80’s boat that a well maintained Flavel Vanessa cooker on board. It’s in excellent (almost unused) condition but has no flame failure device.

My insurance co. will ask me to have the installation Gas Safe certified. Will the lack of a flame failure device cause a problem?
 
Dunno about Easticks experience but I;d say the exact opposite and suggest it's highly unlikely that any gas engineer will issue a Gas Safe certiticate on a cooking appliance without flame failure devices

That said, neither my current nor my previous insurers have asked for such anyway

Regardless of bits of paper, and having used Flavel Vanessas for many years on inland craft, were it me it'd be in the nearest skip without delay. I've personally had the flame blow out on a Vanessa on several occasions. Once it wasn't spotted for some time and there was a definite and strong smell of gas on board below decks. Making haste to the edge of the canal and exiting the boat for an hour to sit in the sunshine whilst it thoroughly ventilated was not a major problem, ever so slightly more tricky to deal with several miles or more offshore
 
The boat safety scheme requires FFDs on newly installed gas appliances, but 'grandfather rights' exist for equipment already installed, subject to their good condition.
However the BSS only applies to inland waters. Should you have no plans for going ther you should have no problems.
My yacht on the Norfolk Broads had ( until very recently a 'Plastimo Atlantic' (no FFDs) and passed every inspection.
 
I've got a Vanessa. Serviced it last year and the carbon monoxide detector now registers zero when the kettles on ( was around 65 ppm ) Only used when stationary and watched, I have no concerns, and there have been no problems with the BSS.
 
Easticks28 said:
The boat safety scheme requires FFDs on newly installed gas appliances, but 'grandfather rights' exist for equipment already installed, subject to their good condition.
Click to expand...

And oh boy did we have trouble getting THAT one agreed! The original draft of the BSS would have banned any gas appliance without flame failure devices full stop (and anything with a permanently lit pilot light too so the skips would have been full of Flavel's and Paloma water heaters!)

But a BSS certificate issued by a BSS inspector is a different beast from a Gas Safe certifcicate issued by a gas engineer and the OP suggests it is the latter that is being required

(Not having to obtain a CORGI, the predessor to gas sage, certificate for all gas installations was another major BSS negotiating point as that too was in the original draft ... and virtually impossible at the time as the CORGI requirements were in parts impossible to meet on a boat)
 
Bru said:
And oh boy did we have trouble getting THAT one agreed! The original draft of the BSS would have banned any gas appliance without flame failure devices full stop (and anything with a permanently lit pilot light too so the skips would have been full of Flavel's and Paloma water heaters!)

But a BSS certificate issued by a BSS inspector is a different beast from a Gas Safe certifcicate issued by a gas engineer and the OP suggests it is the latter that is being required

(Not having to obtain a CORGI, the predessor to gas sage, certificate for all gas installations was another major BSS negotiating point as that too was in the original draft ... and virtually impossible at the time as the CORGI requirements were in parts impossible to meet on a boat)
Click to expand...
There were a number of other 'stupidities' in the original as well. Some still exist...
My VP2001 had to have the fuel hoses replaced because Volvo in their wisdom failed to marg their part with an ISO number or whatever it was. Even brand new pipes from Volvo Penta would have failed for that very reason !
 
Easticks28 said:
There were a number of other 'stupidities' in the original as well. Some still exist...
My VP2001 had to have the fuel hoses replaced because Volvo in their wisdom failed to marg their part with an ISO number or whatever it was. Even brand new pipes from Volvo Penta would have failed for that very reason !
Click to expand...

The original draft was frankly ridiculous. They basically just picked the nearest standard they could find, hence CORGI for gas for example, and then applied it without any real thought or consideration as to whether it was either applicable or practicable

The final version of the scheme differed a great deal from the original draft. One crucial concession, later watered down, was giving examiners discretion in most areas. Unfortunately, most BSS examiners were not then (I don't know about now) qualified surveyors or engineers, they were box tickers who'd done a course. So discretion was rarely in evidence

It was actually highly debatable whether there was any real need for the scheme at all

It truly was a sledgehammer to crack a nut
 
And the idiocy continues. Since the introduction of the BSS scheme and coincdental to it, the Broads Authority have installed numerous mans hook up points, initially to encourage 'electrc boating' . What t has encouraged is the installing of mains servces to both private and hire craft.
Whilst the systems on hire boats are subject to other regulations from the private fleet, the examnors have no powers to block what they mght identify as a dangerous installation on a prvate vessel, they may only issue an 'advsory'. t was established that they would require to have a recognised electrcian's qualificaton, something most would be unable or unwilling to undertake .
So it seems it's ok to electrocute yourself or others, but not blow them up !
 
Graham376 said:
My insurers have never asked for Gas Safe certification, how many do?
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My insurer does! However I'm not sure whether FFD's are mandatory. All know is that I have them on my gas hob and oven and assurance of their correct function was part of the GasSafe examination.
Mike
 
Easticks28 said:
Does the OP know that his insurance co. will ask him to have the installation Gas Safe certified , or is it supposition on his part ?
Click to expand...

The vendor of the boat (with N&G insurance) and my previous 2 boats (with Y Yacht insurance) have required inspection and Gas Safe certificates For the whole installation. This is for seagoing sailing cruisers, nothing to do with BSS.
 
I think anyone who ever sails short handed is going to leave a kettle on the stove unattended from time to time.
Flames can blow out if you've got enough ventilation not to be steaming up the cabin.

Forget all the paperwork, flame failure devices are a great safety aid on a boat.
I would not consider going without.
Retrofit may be possible?

Was there not some add-on system which worked with a solenoid valve at the cylinder?
 
TernVI said:
I think anyone who ever sails short handed is going to leave a kettle on the stove unattended from time to time.
Flames can blow out if you've got enough ventilation not to be steaming up the cabin.
Forget all the paperwork, flame failure devices are a great safety aid on a boat.
I would not consider going without.
Retrofit may be possible?
Was there not some add-on system which worked with a solenoid valve at the cylinder?
Click to expand...
The back up safety system , next to essential if there are not flame failure devices on all burners, is a gas alarm which may be linked to a gas shut off solenoid.
 
VicS said:
The back up safety system , next to essential if there are not flame failure devices on all burners, is a gas alarm which may be linked to a gas shut off solenoid.
Click to expand...
That sounds like an elaborate way of not doing a proper job.
 
My boat is kept on an inland waterway and must have a Boat Safety Certificate, it does not have flame failure devices on the cooker. It does have a gas detector with alarm but neither of these are mentioned in the BSS rule book nor by my insurers.
There were thousands of Vanessa and Neptune cookers sold for decades without these devices, perhaps folk were just more careful then but I can not recall a great number of cooker explosions.
Having said that our cook will only allow the gas bottle to be turned on when she is using it.

I have searched my insurance which is by one of the companies mentioned, can't find the condition anywhere in the documents.
 
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