Gas pipe

Lady Campanula

Lady Campanula

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I'm looking to replace my gas regulator and gas piping, and I understand that 'professional advice' indicates fixed copper tubing, and not more than 1.5m of rubber gas hose - probably to accommodate the swinging gimbal-mounted stove. There will be tube-bends and junction-pieces along that route.

I'd like to understand exactly why it is OK to use a short section of specialist rubber tube, and not to use rubber tube for the whole run - sleeved for anti-chafe protection inside a reinforced flexible hose, and well supported?

Is it a 'Luddite plumber' attitude similar to that which resisted the use of plastic tube pipe and fittings in homes ( e.g. Hepworth H20 )...? Or is there a good technical reason that tells us 1.5m is safe and 2m is not?

:)
 
Gas leaches a bit through rubber hosing.

Also, flexible hosing has a pretty limited lifespan compared with copper.

Copper piping all the way to the cooker would be best, if it wasn't for the need for the cooker to swing.

Covered flexible just means you cannot inspect it properly.
 
It's recommended to replace hose every 5 years. Best to use pvc coated copper pipe to do the run from regulator to appliance isolation valve
 
In North America flexible hose is preferred over copper. One reason is that there are no connections allowed outside of the propane locker by ABYC (or surveyors for whom ABYC is the bible) and if you have a gimbaled stove, as many sailboats do, a connection near the stove from copper to flex hose is not allowed. I know of no problems from flexible rubber hose, approved for propane, leaching enough gas to be an issue.
 
mitiempo said:
In North America flexible hose is preferred over copper. One reason is that there are no connections allowed outside of the propane locker by ABYC (or surveyors for whom ABYC is the bible) and if you have a gimbaled stove, as many sailboats do, a connection near the stove from copper to flex hose is not allowed. I know of no problems from flexible rubber hose, approved for propane, leaching enough gas to be an issue.
Click to expand...

So you cannot put a valve local to the cooker? That would be our normal provision although only strictly required if other appliances are also fed from the same gas supply.

You'd also have to run separate valved supplies from a manifold within the gas locker for each appliance if you had others.

This is the suggested layout, drawn up by Peter Spreadborough of Southampton Calor Centre IIRC and published in PBO several years ago

363128ec.jpg


For simple system:
ac591497.jpg


There may have been some changes in the requirements since they were published but nothing major AFAIK

1 metre is the normal limit for flexible hoses although "all hose" systems are recognised
 
I'm all in favour of simplicity, so can't see anything wrong with a single run of flexible hose with the regulator that fits on the gas bottle at one end, and the stove on the other. This eliminates any joints, which would be the places most likely to leak, so provided that the regulator is fitted with an integral tap, and the stove has flame-failure detection on all burners, that doesn't leave much to go wrong! Of course, this assumes that your gas bottle is mounted reasonably close to your stove, and that the hose is suitably protected when it passes through any bulkhead and is replaced on a regular basis. Probably illegal, but there you go...
 
Lady Campanula said:
I'd like to understand exactly why it is OK to use a short section of specialist rubber tube, and not to use rubber tube for the whole run - sleeved for anti-chafe protection inside a reinforced flexible hose, and well supported?
Click to expand...

As I guess you already know, it's because of the requirements of the Boat Safety Scheme. If you're not constrained by having to comply with BSS edicts, there's no reason why you shouldn't use correctly-specified flexible hose all the way, sleeved for chafe protection, although I support the use of a shut-off valve immediately before the stove.

Last year, I replaced 20 year old flexibles at the stove and in the gas locker, in anticipation of a survey. The old ones were fine, not visibly degraded in any way.
 
Thanks. I'm thinking single appliance ( cooker ) 'simple system', so the 'Alternative' diagram seems to apply.

I like to switch off when finished cooking/kettling by using the adjacent manual tap, which has the gas burn completely out at the applicance, then turn off the appliance tap. When leaving the boat, I turn off also at the bottle.

It's well-nigh impossible to inspect the rigid old copper pipe throughout most of its run, and I imagine that a rubber pipe - manufactured for propane gas - could the more readily be removed periodically from a protective sleeve for careful inspection. That's a whole lot more inspection than the copper pipe gets at present. KISS....?

Thots? Experiences....? :)

Edit: Just spotted PVB's post. Unless there's a big logical 'no-no', that's what I'll do. It's my arris, the stuff will be new, designed for the job - AND I'll inspect it regularly.
 
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Lady Campanula said:
...I turn off also at the bottle.
Click to expand...

I never do. If you're confident of the integrity of the pipework, why bother? *awaits flak*

Lady Campanula said:
It's well-nigh impossible to inspect the rigid old copper pipe throughout most of its run, and I imagine that a rubber pipe - manufactured for propane gas - could the more readily be removed periodically from a protective sleeve for careful inspection. That's a whole lot more inspection than the copper pipe gets at present. KISS....?
Click to expand...

Correct!
 
Lady Campanula said:
Is it a 'Luddite plumber' attitude similar to that which resisted the use of plastic tube pipe and fittings in homes ( e.g. Hepworth H20 )...? Or is there a good technical reason that tells us 1.5m is safe and 2m is not?

:)
Click to expand...

And there's the rub. Its a luddite attitude to you maybe but most central heating pros will have come across badly contaminated plastic pipework on relatively new heating systems. Initially it was assumed that this was pre-barrier type plastic pipework allowing air in, but it seems that problems can also occur in modern barrier type pipes as well. They are also very prone to rodent damage. This means that many of us will still use copper wherever we can for the simple reason that its a superior material overall that causes less problems.

If your gas expertise is similarly well informed, then off you go. I've no doubts at all of your ability to complete the work to a certain standard, but i'd avail myself of a copy of the regulations which specify the correct materials you should use, and where to use them. The better informed you make yourself the happier you will be with the finished work.

Tim
 
VicS said:
This is the suggested layout, drawn up by Peter Spreadborough of Southampton Calor Centre IIRC and published in PBO several years ago

363128ec.jpg
Click to expand...

I had a set up similar to that, two gas bottles with rubber hose to the regulator, then I had two runs of copper pipe, one to the cooker, one to the hob. I got a new hob and had a gas safe chap come out to make the connections. BSS was also due at the same time and he changed my set up to regulator on the bottle and one gas pipe with a T piece to both the cooker and hob. He said it's best to have the regulator on the bottle as otherwise you have a high pressure section which would result in a lot of gas in the locker if it failed.
 
In North America most install a normally closed solenoid at the tank, either before or after the regulator, and either operated by a combination sniffer/solenoid control or a separate switch. The sniffer/solenoid control not only warns of a leak but closes the valve if one is detected. The valve common in the UK near the stove requires 2 connections that are not allowed on this side of the pond.

2 appliances requires 2 separate uninterrupted runs from the locker. Flex hose from the tank to the regulator is allowed as long as it is the approved type of hose.
 
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On balance I think i would rather have a properly installed rigid ( copper or stainless steel) pipe system (with a local shut off valve) regardless of the 2 extra connections than rubber tubing running all around the place.
My gas system is like that even though the pipe run may not be significantly more than 1 metre

Properly made compression fitting joints should cause no problems.

Ideally because my cooker is fixed I would have a solid pipe to it as well . In fact because it is the only appliance I could have a single solid pipe run all the way from the gas locker with no joints. However there is a short hose connection to facilitate installation.
 
I gather that it is a requirement to have a shut off tap next to the appliance but I think there's a little bit of a danger of people not bothering to turn off at the bottle if its turned off inside, which, of course, is crazy as its the joints that will leak first.
The difficult bit I found was finding anywhere high enough to vent the bottom of the gas locker overboard. I tried it in the stern locker but it used to get water in from being on a swinging mooring.
I've finally cracked it by putting the gas locker in the anchor well, which is drained anyway. It takes 2 Camping Gaz 903s (bit expensive, but compact).
I think the most important bit of kit is a bubble leak detector. You press the button and it will tell you if there's been a leak downstream, before you even enter the cabin.
My opinion about some regulations is that if its a choice between common sense safety and meeting all the regs, I'd rather go for the safety!
Good luck.
 
I gather that it is a requirement to have a shut off tap next to the appliance
Click to expand...
It is not a requirement of the Boat safety scheme if there is only one appliance. The bottle shut off valve may be classed as the appliance isolating valve .
7.11 refers q.v.
 
Flexible gas hose has only a few years of useful life. Copper is almost indefinite. Flexible gas hose is not totally fireproof. Copper is. Ideally you need a continuous pipe without joins, using the flexibility of small bore tube for bends etc. Each end of the copper run needs flexible tube to connect to the regulator, which by its nature must be moveable. The other end must also be flexible to connect to a gimballed cooker, as copper tube would quickly fail due to metal fatigue. Finally an 18 inch length of armoured flexible is better still at the cooker end, and only costs a few quid, and is safer on the flammabiliy front. Your entire run should not cost more that £30
 
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