Pye_End
Well-Known Member
Are you saying that a lack of FFD on the cooker was the cause of the explosion?
Gas cookers and Gas storage
- Thread starter jpay
- Start date
Are you saying that a lack of FFD on the cooker was the cause of the explosion?
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
And the BIG danger here is that despite being fail safe, if you turn OFF the electrics whilst cooking (without FFD) by mistake, and then turn them on again, then you will be flooding the boat with gas. This happened on my last boat, so I think there is an arguement to wire this direct to the battery, so that you cannot accidently cut the supply.
mitiempo
Well-Known Member
No, but an undetected propane leak was.
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
No, the correct was is to drive the valve with an electrically latched relay which is latched unlatched using push buttons or spring centre switches. In this case if the electrical supply is removed the valve will not reopen until the operating button is pressed again, being fail safe.
dovekie
Well-Known Member
One factor to consider is rust, on the cooker itself. My experience is that they rust in a marine environent - not surprisingly - but that an all stainless 'marine' one has spared me much cleaning/reapinting over the years.
ghostlymoron
Well-Known Member
The upper and lower explosive limits expressed as % gas in air are as follows:-
n-Butane Lower explosive limit 1.86% Upper explosive limit 8.41%
Propane Lower explosive limit 2.1% Upper explosive limit 10.1%
This means that butane for example can explode when there is more than 1.86% gas in air but will not explode if there is more than 8.41% gas in air.
However I would not like to take any risks with no flame failure device on all burners. I often pop below, put the kettle on, return to cockpit and wait till I hear the kettle whistle and I'm sure many skippers do likewise. If the flame went out, I couild easily fill the boat with 1.86% gas before I realised then a spark from the bilge pump level switch would have enough energy to cause an explosion. This can happen! Google 'Abbeystead' for an example.
I would imagine that many of us take risks with gas eg not turning off at external gas locker when it is dark and rainy. Come on - own up. But with FFD there is some safeguard although I'm not recommending complacency.
n-Butane Lower explosive limit 1.86% Upper explosive limit 8.41%
Propane Lower explosive limit 2.1% Upper explosive limit 10.1%
This means that butane for example can explode when there is more than 1.86% gas in air but will not explode if there is more than 8.41% gas in air.
However I would not like to take any risks with no flame failure device on all burners. I often pop below, put the kettle on, return to cockpit and wait till I hear the kettle whistle and I'm sure many skippers do likewise. If the flame went out, I couild easily fill the boat with 1.86% gas before I realised then a spark from the bilge pump level switch would have enough energy to cause an explosion. This can happen! Google 'Abbeystead' for an example.
I would imagine that many of us take risks with gas eg not turning off at external gas locker when it is dark and rainy. Come on - own up. But with FFD there is some safeguard although I'm not recommending complacency.
VicS
Well-Known Member
Thing is if you go back a little way only the ovens had FFDs so for a long time we did not, in the majority of cases anyway, have them on all burners.
Earlier in the thread Norman S pointed out that the BSS required them on all burners.
BUT BUT BUT when I bothered to check it I found that it applied to appliances fitted since, IIRC, 2000
Even the BSS still allows appliances fitted before that date without them. Even the BSS which as far as I know offers no concessions on any other parts of the gas installation.
Personally I don't put the kettle on an leave it ... because there is a risk of the flame blowing out.
Since I cannot find a cooker with FFDs to fit I think I will fit a gas alarm, possibly with a gas shut off feature. Its sensible with gas onboard anyway.
If I had an electric bilge pump with a gas installation on board I think I would want one that was safe to operate in an explosive environment. You never know when a minute gas leak could lead to gas accumulating slowly in the bilges and waiting to go bang when the pump started. All the FFDs in the world wont save you then.
I assume you have FFDs on all the burners on you gas cooker at home. I dont remember them being an option when we had our kitchen fitted not so many years ago.
Whats the Abbeystead disater got to do with FFDs ??
A reference to boat explosions due to lack of FFDs would be more relevant
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daryy
New Member
In the end I bought a two burner + grill from the local camping centre and set about modifying it to suit.
prv
Well-Known Member
They recently became mandatory in blocks of flats, so more domestic cookers are available with them, but they're still not the norm. My cooker (couple of years old) doesn't have them.
Pete
VicS
Well-Known Member
What after all that has been said above .. how could you?
make sure you dont anchor next to Norman S!
I really am thinking about fitting a gas alarm. Gas leakage from an extinguished burner is only one source of gas. FFDs may prevent that but an alarm will warn you about it wherever it has come from.
Mind you I haven't looked at the cost yet
rogerthebodger
Well-Known Member
I have fitted a gas detector on my new boat but I have found with the smell added to LPG in RSA Mk1 nose can detect gas before my gas detector, but fitting one helps when Mk1 nose is not available.
I even got one of those portable ones and I found that not as good as the said MK1 nose.
I even got one of those portable ones and I found that not as good as the said MK1 nose.
J*O*A*M*O*N
New Member
If I remember correctly the last gas range we had had piezo electric start and would click for a while after ignition, and would click again to reignite if the flame went out. Don't live there any longer so can't run down and test but...
Here in the US the regulations require that the run to the appliance from the source is continuous with no joints, fittings, or valves allowed.If I remember correctly... electric shutoff is mandatory I'll have to look at the USCG Regs but this was a very hot topic in one of the user groups I belong to and the discussion got pretty heated there too.... sorry couldn't help it Ed
Here in the US the regulations require that the run to the appliance from the source is continuous with no joints, fittings, or valves allowed.If I remember correctly... electric shutoff is mandatory I'll have to look at the USCG Regs but this was a very hot topic in one of the user groups I belong to and the discussion got pretty heated there too.... sorry couldn't help it Ed
VicS
Well-Known Member
Yes your regs are different and what you say is also what I understand to be the case in the US. Even outside regulations there are differences between what are the commonly used and recommended practices in the UK and the US.
The UK is more aligned with European practices I think and as far as laws, rules and regulations go if Brussels say jump we frantically run in circles, scream and shout and leap!
It is said that the European directive on duck eggs is far longer than the US Constitution!
Pye_End
Well-Known Member
Have just taken out my 23 year old copper pipe. I was amazed at how much copper (copper oxide) come off from the pipe that was fixed in the outside locker. The posts above about protecting copper pipe from the environment are suddenly thought provoking, as was my asumption that copper pipe won't go wrong! Rather than an epoxy finish, maybe the odd oiling will keep the pipe sweet? The pipe routed through the inside looks absolutely fine.
I am now wondering whether the easiest way to protect the pipe as it goes through the bulkhead is to wrap some pvc tape round it. Any recommendations?
I am now wondering whether the easiest way to protect the pipe as it goes through the bulkhead is to wrap some pvc tape round it. Any recommendations?
Bodach na mara
Well-Known Member
"I am now wondering whether the easiest way to protect the pipe as it goes through the bulkhead is to wrap some pvc tape round it. Any recommendations? "
Where the pipe goes through the bulkhead from the gas locker, you must use a gas-tight fitting such as a bulkhead fitting. For other bulkheads and shelves I used neoprene tube that was a slip-on fit over the copper. I put it on the copper before it was passed through the bulkhead in all but one shelf when I forgot until I had made up the joint at the valve below the cooker. To get round the problem of possible chafe at this point I cut a short length of tube in a spiral and fed it over the copper. All the holes in shelves and bulkheads were sized to allow the neoprene as a fairly tight fit.
On the FFD debate, I did not have them before I bought my present cooker. I agree with VicS that I should not rely on them and should cut the gas off either at the valve in the locker below the cooker or at the bottle or both. In the incident described in a previous post, we had made coffee on the way up Loch Fyne and were planning to make a meal after entering harbour, so the gas was not turned off.
In regard to domestic installations, I was surprised that many cookers and hobs on sale are not fitted with FFDs. There is rarely a year goes by without a gas explosion in the news and pictures of a demolished house. I used to use the cuttings in my lectures on building services to emphasize the need for extreme care with gas. You cannot easily cut off the gas at home. Our gas cock is outside in the meter box and I am certainly not going out there every night. I bought a gas hob last lear with FFDs and am glad they are fitted as the knobs have been left in the on position several times in the last year, usually by being knocked during cleaning I suspect.
Where the pipe goes through the bulkhead from the gas locker, you must use a gas-tight fitting such as a bulkhead fitting. For other bulkheads and shelves I used neoprene tube that was a slip-on fit over the copper. I put it on the copper before it was passed through the bulkhead in all but one shelf when I forgot until I had made up the joint at the valve below the cooker. To get round the problem of possible chafe at this point I cut a short length of tube in a spiral and fed it over the copper. All the holes in shelves and bulkheads were sized to allow the neoprene as a fairly tight fit.
On the FFD debate, I did not have them before I bought my present cooker. I agree with VicS that I should not rely on them and should cut the gas off either at the valve in the locker below the cooker or at the bottle or both. In the incident described in a previous post, we had made coffee on the way up Loch Fyne and were planning to make a meal after entering harbour, so the gas was not turned off.
In regard to domestic installations, I was surprised that many cookers and hobs on sale are not fitted with FFDs. There is rarely a year goes by without a gas explosion in the news and pictures of a demolished house. I used to use the cuttings in my lectures on building services to emphasize the need for extreme care with gas. You cannot easily cut off the gas at home. Our gas cock is outside in the meter box and I am certainly not going out there every night. I bought a gas hob last lear with FFDs and am glad they are fitted as the knobs have been left in the on position several times in the last year, usually by being knocked during cleaning I suspect.
alan17
Well-Known Member
Gas safety
Vic
I have always thought of you as a sensible man with knowledge but on this one you seem to be batting yourself into an indefensible position. Ever heard of sods law and if it can happen then one day it will happen. When in a hole stop digging.
Vic
I have always thought of you as a sensible man with knowledge but on this one you seem to be batting yourself into an indefensible position. Ever heard of sods law and if it can happen then one day it will happen. When in a hole stop digging.
VicS
Well-Known Member
One or two others have agreed though. And if it is so vital to have FFDs why don't ALL domestic cookers have them and why are they not required accross the board, regardless of the age of the appliance by the BSS.
If I had not decided to fit a new cooker there would have been no debate. My old one, installed when the boat was built, would have been accepted even by the BSS!
In the past year in the UK how many gas explosions on small boats have been the direct result of them not having FFDs.
Remember as little as 10 years ago the popular cooker did not have FFds except on the ovens ... a good few of them will still be in use so you cannot suggest that the low number of "mishaps" is there are so few out the with no ffds
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alan17
Well-Known Member
Chris_Robb
Well-Known Member
Vic - A house does not have bilges - perhaps thats the difference.
Also - I had several near misses (or hits) with my old cooker - you may remember that I posted that someone turned off the main switch for moment which shut the fail safe solenoid, and then filled up the boat with gas when the electrics were switched on again moments later - no-one new that the power had been off - we were lucky.....
VicS
Well-Known Member
There have been far more than zero people killed on the roads in the past year and probably just today So FFS dont go out there.
Turn off all your domestic gas and electricity and stay in doors.
And just pray that nothing else gets you in there.
Sorry you can dig this hole as deep as you like I'm not ready to climb into it.