Gas cookers and Gas storage

Automatic Gas Valves...

To avoid starting another thread I thought i'd hijack this one.. if you dont mind?

Does anyone know anything about Automatic gas valves? I'm also thinking of fitting one as the knob has broken on my current gas valve at the end of last season (I had to use pliers to turn it off) They seem a convenient way of turning the gas off at source from inside the cabin. My main concern would be how do I turn the gas off if my elecricity failed due to fire etc).

Cheers

Mike
 
Vic

It is a requirement of our boat inspection authority that all gas appliances on boat have a flame failour valve and as my gas cooker on my previous boat did not have them fitted I had to fit then.

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/acatalog/copy_of_Type_50_FFD_Flame_Failure_Valve.html

This is simular to the type I fitted.

I think they are essencial as the gas could blow out and not be noticed in which case the boat could "fill" with gas with possible explosive results.

Just my view.

My new boat has what is sold in RSA as a domestic hob for LPG and has Flame Failure Valves fitted as standard.
 
VicS said:
The only effective method of ventilating the bilges would be with a fan.
Click to expand...

Hmm, how about a bucket with a lid or even better a household bin? alternatively lift or beach and take the transducers out.

We don't have FFD either on the Plastimo Atlantic (I think), does that mean no one will moor along side us?

Pete
 
mikecontessa26 said:
To avoid starting another thread I thought i'd hijack this one.. if you dont mind?

Does anyone know anything about Automatic gas valves? I'm also thinking of fitting one as the knob has broken on my current gas valve at the end of last season (I had to use pliers to turn it off) They seem a convenient way of turning the gas off at source from inside the cabin. My main concern would be how do I turn the gas off if my elecricity failed due to fire etc).

Cheers

Mike
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by automatic valves. If you mean electric operated valves then they are not motorised they are solenoids with a spring return. They need a continuous electrical supply to hold them open and shut when it is switched off or if it fails.
 
"Almost non existant"......

VicS said:
You had better let me and all the others who no not have FFDs on all burners know how we will recognise you then. Remember the Vanessa cooker was the popular cooker until some time after 2000 and that did not have FFDs on the grill or hob burners. There will still be a lot of them about

You are not being very helpful. I need a cooker, two burners and grill, that will fit the available space, About 470mm wide and 270mm deep. Which one do I buy?

Since you say that FFDs are essential perhaps you can quantify the danger.
If the cooker is in use I am right next to it using it so the chances of a flame failure going unnoticed for long is almost non existent but even if it did how much gas would have to be released into the cabin to create a potentially dangerous situation. There will be a tendency for the released gas to fall to the floor , at least initially where there is no source of ignition but suppose it was all stirred up to reach the likely source of ignition... me relighting the burner probably, just how much gas would be required to make that an explosive mixture and how long would it take for that much gas to be released.

When the cooker is not in use I shut the local isolating valve so no problems then. I am also thinking of fitting an electrically operated valve local to the gas bottle.

I await your recommendation for a cooker that has the FFDs you consider essential and some arithmetic that supports your assertion.
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For your information FFD's are required by BW's Boat Safety Scheme. They obviously realise that there is a danger of a gas burner, in a boat, being blown out by the wind, or being extinguished by other means.

I'm sure if you care to take the trouble, you are capable of doing your own research into sourcing a suitable cooker to suit your requirements, and dimensions. There are plenty of appliances on the market.

I would have thought that every conciencious boat owner would be well aware of the danger of escaped gas accumulating in the bottom of the boat. If you are unaware of this danger, I recommend that you do some very basic research on the subject.

I find your complacency regarding your use of gas, astounding. (e.g. "no source of ignition").
 
yes a solenoid, thats what I meant.. they sound good do they replace the regulator valve or just go in-line of it?

Sorry to labour the thread, i guess i'll do more research at home tonight.

Cost will be the decider, and finding another switch free!

Thanks

michael
 
in line reg still req
Click to expand...
That's right you still need the regulator to reduce the gas pressure from the bottle pressure.

I think you will find that they are normally fitted inside the gas locker although since they only work on the low pressure gas I don't see why they have to be.

They should not be seen as substitute for the gas bottle valve, just as a convenient way of shutting off the supply when not required for a short spell.
 
mmm.. suddenly seems like a lot of fuss and rewiring because of my lazyness and desire to wake up and make a cup of tea from my berth without having to go outside to turn the gas on :-(
 
suddenly seems like a lot of fuss and rewiring because of my lazyness and desire to wake up and make a cup of tea from my berth without having to go outside to turn the gas on
Click to expand...
I think you have just about summed it up but it could still be useful, enabling you to turn the supply off easily on all those occasions where you would not normally bother to go and turn off at the bottle.
 
Norman S

You say
For your information FFD's are required by BW's Boat Safety Scheme. They obviously realise that there is a danger of a gas burner, in a boat, being blown out by the wind, or being extinguished by other means.​
Yes I realise that a burner could be blown out by the wind, but I'll be there using it and will pretty soon notice if my dinner stops cooking.
I asked you how much gas has to escape before it creates a potentially dangerous situation and how long that will take .. assuming the burner is on full if you like.
I am still waiting for an answer. A few ccs ? a few tens of ccs a few hundred of ccs or even litres ? How long does that take? A few seconds a few minutes or an hour or so?

You say
I'm sure if you care to take the trouble, you are capable of doing your own research into sourcing a suitable cooker to suit your requirements, and dimensions. There are plenty of appliances on the market.​
I did explore the posibility of fitting a cooker with FFDs. I could not find one which would fit.
You claim there are plenty on the market.
Will you please name a selection from which I can make my final choice?

You say
I would have thought that every conciencious boat owner would be well aware of the danger of escaped gas accumulating in the bottom of the boat. If you are unaware of this danger, I recommend that you do some very basic research on the subject.​
I am well aware than LPG has a greater density than air and will tend to sink to the lowest level when first released.
There are no sources of ignition at cabin floor level ...none that I am aware of any way .. you obviously know my boat better than I do, which I find rather surprising, but nevertheless tell what they are.


I have asked some specific questions:

How much gas has to escape to create a dangerous situation?

How long will it take for that much gas to be released from a single burner?

What two burner plus grill stoves will be suitable? ( Just 5 or 6 out of "plenty" will do)

What are these sources of ignition on my cabin floor?

Time now for some specific answers please.
 
Flame failure devices

If VicS has had no problems despite having no FFD, he is lucky. I have had problems on all the boats I have owned where the cooker did not have a FFD. The last incident occurred in Tarbert harbour the year after I bought Wight Dawn. The cooker (Flavel B700 at the time) is mounted near the door to the heads and someone managed to knock the knob for one of the burners turning it on. This was not noticed until tea was called for. There followed a long session with the bilge pump coupled with my efforts with a bucket. This caused much amusement on the next boat. The owner wandered along, smoking a cigarette to ask why I was emptying nothing repeatedly over the side. When told that I had a gas leak, he retreated fast. We completed the job using a vacuum cleaner to blow air into the bilge once we could no longer smell the gas. I repleced the cooker the next week with a Plastimo 2000 type.

I would NOT recommend a camping cooker on a boat. They are designed for use in the open air, where there is plenty of ventilation. In my younger cheapskate days, I bought such a cooker. For some reason, I needed to partially dismantle it and found that the gas pipes to the burners were only pressed into the sockets. The pipes were a soft alumimium alloy with tapered ends and the seal when pushed home was "good enough" according to the salesman and what could I expect for £25 (1976 price.) I used it for picnics, but would never have put it on a boat.
 
The cooker (Flavel B700 at the time) is mounted near the door to the heads and someone managed to knock the knob for one of the burners turning it on
Click to expand...

I knew that was going to be one of the Westerly 31s even before I looked at your profile. One of the things that made my late friend/skipper change his cooker.

Fortunately that cannot happen to mine. No door to the heads compartment ... no heads compartment.

Even so why on earth did you not turn off the isolation valve immediately below it when it was not in use. sensible thing to do when not fitted with FFDs I would have thought.

You join Noramn S is saying I should not use a camping stove. He says there are plenty with FFDs on the market I therefore ask you the same ...... name a selection from which I can make my final choice.
 
Wight Dawn said:
The cooker (Flavel B700 at the time) is mounted near the door to the heads and someone managed to knock the knob for one of the burners turning it on. This was not noticed until tea was called for. .
Click to expand...

So you leave your gas on whilst not using it?

You don't have a gas detector?

If you had a leak in the pipework you would not have been able to blame the cooker for the explosion.

If the argument is that gas has to be treated with cotton gloves then FFD is only one part of the equation. It is easy to be careful of a non-FFD cooker - don't leave the gas on unsupervised.

There must be thousands of boats that were fitted with non-FFD cookers, most of which still exist. So - how big a problem has this been? How many boats would still be here today if they were fitted with FFD cookers?

I'm not disagreeing that FFD cooker is highly desirable - but it is not essential.
 
Specially for VicS

The gases normally used as fuels in boats, namely butane and propane, are denser than air, and so tend to accumulate in the bottom of boats. Sadly, every year, boats are destroyed by gas explosions. Anything which can reasonably be done to minimise this risk should be done. This includes using FFD's, gas detectors, safe procedures, such as turning off the supply when not in use, and using the normally accepted methods of safe bottle stowage, and pipework.

If you find that, for whatever reason, you cannot source a gas cooker which can operate in a safe manner, in the available space in your boat, you have several options. These include changing the space, or changing to a safer fuel.

I do have some experience with the range of explosive mixes of gas and air, but I have no intention of debating them here with you. If your boat blows up, the precise percentage of gas / air that was present at the time, will be of no further interest to you.

You say that "there are no sources of ignition" at cabin sole level. I expect that you have some electricity on your boat. You may even have an electric starter motor. Nuff said.
 
Nuff said
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No. No answers to the questions I asked

You said there were plenty on the market. Name them!

OR name a few two burner + grill stoves using a safer fuel.

No electricity around the cabin floor or the bilges. No starter motor either!

Still would like to know how much gas leakage would constitute a danger.
You say you have the experience lets have some facts.

You surely release some every time you light the stove, so you are saying that over the years it accumulates in the bottom. Eventually then FFDs or not its going to blow up!
 
62' schooner near me sunk after propane explosion. The entire boat was torn apart and the boat sunk immediately. If I couldn't find a stove that fit I would make one fit as well as have a sniffer and solenoid at the tank. Propane can be very safe if the proper precautions are taken but it is not a fuel to be careless about.
 
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