lusitano
Well-Known Member
I have an old and out of use Smiths CAV secondary double filter and water separator unit.
Would this be a suitable basis for a fuel polishing system ?
Would this be a suitable basis for a fuel polishing system ?
Fuel Polishing
- Thread starter Trundlebug
- Start date
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
LittleShip
Well-Known Member
These filter down to 5-7 microns...........as far as I'm concerned it works and works well..........my tanks are clean and I change the filters when ever I need to, which isnt very often now as the tanks are clean (jeeze I've said it now). my engine only burns 2 gallons/hr and the polishing system only cleans 30gallons/hr......why would I want/need a filter capable of cleaning hundreds of gallons /hr at the extra expense with no benifit to the system.
Paul, I think we will have to agree to differ on this.
Tom
Latestarter1
Well-Known Member
I have spent a good few years around diesel engine installations, automotive, industrial, power generation. Nothing compares with marine, requires a totally different mind set to build a fuel system which will ensure vessel is free of breakdown due to contamination.
The filters you quoted as using are simply inadequate for the job. I looked at the applications, little Yanmar 3TNE up to Land Rover 2.5 and VM 2.5. These are widdy tractor and automotive applications.
Please please read up on filteration. The stuff you are using is not Beta rated, neither is Racor stuff for that matter which is my beef with them.
OK micron ratings are how oil, fuel, hydraulic and other liquid filters efficiency are measured. A human hair for instance is 40-80 microns, or more relevant mould spores 10-30 microns.
When talking about micron ratings there are two different ratings commonly referred to or given to a filter.
The nominal rating which is the smallest size particle the filter will catch 50% of the time on a consistent basis. The nominal rating is just a way to get a lower number in the marketing and really doesn’t mean anything to you and I.
Your preferred filter CLAIMS to filter down to 5-7 microns. That means that 5-7 microns is the smallest particle it will catch 50% of the time.
The next and most important rating is the absolute rating. The absolute rating is the smallest particle the filter will catch 98.7% of the time. This is the rating you should be asking for when you are researching your filters.
However my explanation of the absolute ratings needs to be broken down a little more. Beta ratios and how they work as they are critical to really knowing how the filter can actually perform and are not as easily manipulated as a nominal or absolute number can be the unknowing consumer.
“Nominal” ratings are ok when nothing else is known; as some info is always better than no info. And “nominal” ratings can help compare one filter to another, but only at 50% efficiency.
There is a much better way to compare filters, though. Beta ratios are a multi-level rating of the efficiency of a filter. Some filters can be very good at one particle size, but poor at another. Beta ratings allow us to understand how a filter performs overall. While it is not an exact correlation, it can be presumed to reasonably represent both the “nominal” and near-absolute ratings.
Beta ratings are read in a particular way, and some basic math must be applied. Betas are stated as two fractions, each representing a ratio. Please understand that it is NOT the actual fraction you are using, but rather the numbers as individual values. They are merely stated as a “fraction” for the purpose of easy notation.
You must take the first number (upper number) as an inverse to the number “1” (one), and then subtract that resultant percentage from a whole of 100%. This applies for the upper and lower numbers individually. Then you use the second fractional value as individual number to know what micro size the rating is stated at.
For example;
Beta rating of: “2 / 20 = 13 / 23”
The “2” is taken as a percentage, when divided into “1”; i.e. 1 / 2 (one-half), or 50% missed. So 100% particles minus 50% missed = 50% caught.
The “20” is taken as a percentage, when also divided into “1”; 1/20 (one-twentieth) or 5%. So 100% particles minus 5% missed = 95% caught.
The “13” is the particle size at the 50% rating. In other words, 50% of the time the filter catches particles that are at, or larger than, 13 microns in size.
The “23” is the particle size at the 95% rating. In other words, 95% of the time the filter catches particles that are at, or larger than, 23 microns in size.
Using this formula allows you to understand how a filter does its job with both large and small particles, and how efficient it is at those particular ratings. It is a much better view of the filter’s abilities as a whole.
Cat and Cummins focus on the Beta ratio not just measurement of microns, take a look at this Cat publication. http://www.pon-cat.com/Global/Pon P...og filter gjennomstrømming.pdf?epslanguage=en
Used to share a beer or two in Africa with local Cat guy. Most of large power generation on mine sites was pretty equal split of Cat 3512 or Cummins KV60 with few interlopers from Deutz, Mitsubishi or MTU. Interlopers were always in trouble, mainly with injectors.
If Cat or Cummins hit injector problems we could be over 90% confidant operators playing silly games cutting corners with filteration. Mine site would say we only get this problem with your engine. Quick call to Cat guy would confirm that they were also having injector issues. Kevin the Cat guy always drawled no such thing as too much filteration.
If Trundlebug makes his fuel polisher into a properly installed system it will be totally effective AND cost less to maintain and not grind to a halt if he is hit with a bout of microbial contamination.
Just remember the Cat guy......No such thing as too much filteration. And boats requre totally different approach to filteration.
Paul
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LittleShip
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the info Paul very interesting.....
However I stand by what I know works and at an economical expense. Most of the guys on here are running quite small engines compared to what you have delt with and need a cost effective way of reducing the risk of contamination, the set up I fitted/use delivers that remedy by continually filtering the fuel and hopefully catching the contaminates befor it goes into the fuel delivery side to the engine.
If I have problems I'll call you and you can say I told you so!
As I said...... I think we will have to agree to disagree.
Now what do you know about chemical treatments for fuel bug removal
Tom
However I stand by what I know works and at an economical expense. Most of the guys on here are running quite small engines compared to what you have delt with and need a cost effective way of reducing the risk of contamination, the set up I fitted/use delivers that remedy by continually filtering the fuel and hopefully catching the contaminates befor it goes into the fuel delivery side to the engine.
If I have problems I'll call you and you can say I told you so!
As I said...... I think we will have to agree to disagree.
Now what do you know about chemical treatments for fuel bug removal
Tom
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DAKA
Well-Known Member
This is great stuff and you put it across so simply to understand, I fear your posts get lost in the smoke and a dedicated post would get more attention and perhaps help avoid you getting annoyed when we ask the same questions repeatedly .
Your above post for example regarding engine filtration is lost in a polishing post.
Out of interest could little ship remove his cav filters and replace with a prefilter that is designed to remove emulsified water (FS1000 or similar) and then use his old cavs for fuel polishing, as far as I can tell littleship only has protection from free water and he is asking about treatments which will turn some of the water from free water to emulsified water which is free to pass through his current pre filters and engine filters.
The reason I ask is in particular to fuel polishing because I think most of us regard fuel polishing just as an exercise to reduce free water and sludge from the tank , we know the fuel will not be 100% clean, we leave the prefilter and engine filter to take care of that.
I have addressed my post to Paul , Tom as I am not at all sure on this but I think you currently run the risk of allowing water (emulsified) through your injectors, as we use older more stale fuel and more vegetable fuel into our tanks we will become more and more at risk of larger levels of water.
LittleShip
Well-Known Member
DAKA
These are the filters I use before the small CAV mounted engine filters.
https://www.mann-hummel.com/mf_prod...g_03_sFrNoList=&ktlg_subpage=0&gobackToPage=3
As you can see they do have water seperation.
I have one I use to continuously filter from the tanks (Polish) and one as a pre filter for the fuel line. I have two seperate fittings on each tank so the bottom ones draw fuel into the filter and return back to the tanks. The higher connection (about 1") draws fuel into the pre-filter and then on to the engine filters (small CAV on the engine).
I'm not sure Paul understands my set up, maybe he does and still dosent like it
I agree the info would be better as a seperate post and probably as a sticky at the top of the section.
Asking about chemical addatives was just to throw a spanner in
These are the filters I use before the small CAV mounted engine filters.
https://www.mann-hummel.com/mf_prod...g_03_sFrNoList=&ktlg_subpage=0&gobackToPage=3
As you can see they do have water seperation.
I have one I use to continuously filter from the tanks (Polish) and one as a pre filter for the fuel line. I have two seperate fittings on each tank so the bottom ones draw fuel into the filter and return back to the tanks. The higher connection (about 1") draws fuel into the pre-filter and then on to the engine filters (small CAV on the engine).
I'm not sure Paul understands my set up, maybe he does and still dosent like it
I agree the info would be better as a seperate post and probably as a sticky at the top of the section.
Asking about chemical addatives was just to throw a spanner in
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DAKA
Well-Known Member
I accept this is all so mixed up its difficult to follow who is talking about engine filters/pre filters and fuel polishing.
Most water separators are only designed to remove free water.
Water becomes emulsified by the use of additives (some now added at source ) and by the actions of fuel pumps.
Depending on the type of filter you are using then the emulsified water is most likely free to pass through your filter.
Types
Cellulose paper ..........are not designed to remove water, only the action/design of the filter case will remove free water.
Treated paper........... designed to remove emulsified water
Stratopore(as used in FS1000)............ I rely on this for my prefilter as being superior to my engine filter.
Most water separators are only designed to remove free water.
Water becomes emulsified by the use of additives (some now added at source ) and by the actions of fuel pumps.
Depending on the type of filter you are using then the emulsified water is most likely free to pass through your filter.
Types
Cellulose paper ..........are not designed to remove water, only the action/design of the filter case will remove free water.
Treated paper........... designed to remove emulsified water
Stratopore(as used in FS1000)............ I rely on this for my prefilter as being superior to my engine filter.
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Bubblegtt
Well-Known Member
So this is the best filter for marine use, but what filter head should it be used with?
I want to build my own fuel polishing set up like the others on here
Thanks for the indepth advice on this thread so far, as it's been a bit of an eye opener!
PaulGooch
Well-Known Member
So this is the best filter for marine use, but what filter head should it be used with?
I want to build my own fuel polishing set up like the others on here
Thanks for the indepth advice on this thread so far, as it's been a bit of an eye opener!
See post #9
AdeOlly
Well-Known Member
I was watching this thread with interest last week. After Sunday, I've been re-reading it very closely. Why?? Loss of power on stbd engine on way back to Gosport on Sunday, engine struggling, revs fluctuating, but problem going away at lower revs.... suspicion fuel starvation. Back on berth the nice clean filters that were dropped into the racors a few weeks back now black Not dripping with slime black, but black and clearly blocking. (bloomin small those racor filter elements, must be about a quarter of the area of the Fleetguard cannister jobs that the Hardy had)
I've been half expecting this as the boat, which we acquired in September, had seen hardly any use over the previous three years and the tanks were only one third full. One of the first things I did after buying the boat was to apply a hefty dose of diesel bug treatment, and then fill up as soon as launched. I have been dosing with Marine 16 at each fill (though only on second tankfull). As we've hit some choppier water the last couple of trips I'm assuming we've stirred bottom crud up a bit rather than having a live infection. Nevertheless there will be a shock dose of Grotamar 82 going in on Friday. This still leaves me with tanks full of crud, so next project is going to be to a fuel polishing system.....
The fuel tanks are not even interconnected at the moment, and the factory fit filtration is just a single racor 500 per tank pre-filter with 30 micron (Laterstarter comments about this noted) filter element. Tanks are plastic, no drains points fitted.
A setup based on the Fleetguard 1221 with an electric circulation pump that can be run at will seems the way to go based on this thread.....
Not dripping with slime black, but black and clearly blocking. (bloomin small those racor filter elements, must be about a quarter of the area of the Fleetguard cannister jobs that the Hardy had)I've been half expecting this as the boat, which we acquired in September, had seen hardly any use over the previous three years and the tanks were only one third full. One of the first things I did after buying the boat was to apply a hefty dose of diesel bug treatment, and then fill up as soon as launched. I have been dosing with Marine 16 at each fill (though only on second tankfull). As we've hit some choppier water the last couple of trips I'm assuming we've stirred bottom crud up a bit rather than having a live infection. Nevertheless there will be a shock dose of Grotamar 82 going in on Friday. This still leaves me with tanks full of crud, so next project is going to be to a fuel polishing system.....
The fuel tanks are not even interconnected at the moment, and the factory fit filtration is just a single racor 500 per tank pre-filter with 30 micron (Laterstarter comments about this noted) filter element. Tanks are plastic, no drains points fitted.
A setup based on the Fleetguard 1221 with an electric circulation pump that can be run at will seems the way to go based on this thread.....
noelex
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear about your problems.I was watching this thread with interest last week. After Sunday, I've been re-reading it very closely. Why?? Loss of power on stbd engine on way back to Gosport on Sunday, engine struggling, revs fluctuating, but problem going away at lower revs.... suspicion fuel starvation. Back on berth the nice clean filters that were dropped into the racors a few weeks back now black
I've been half expecting this as the boat, which we acquired in September, had seen hardly any use over the previous three years and the tanks were only one third full. One of the first things I did after buying the boat was to apply a hefty dose of diesel bug treatment, and then fill up as soon as launched. I have been dosing with Marine 16 at each fill (though only on second tankfull). As we've hit some choppier water the last couple of trips I'm assuming we've stirred bottom crud up a bit rather than having a live infection. Nevertheless there will be a shock dose of Grotamar 82 going in on Friday. This still leaves me with tanks full of crud, so next project is going to be to a fuel polishing system.....
The fuel tanks are not even interconnected at the moment, and the factory fit filtration is just a single racor 500 per tank pre-filter with 30 micron (Laterstarter comments about this noted) filter element. Tanks are plastic, no drains points fitted.
A setup based on the Fleetguard 1221 with an electric circulation pump that can be run at will seems the way to go based on this thread.....
Once the fuel reaches this stage generally you need to remove the fuel and clean tHe tank mechanically with cloths etc or use one of the temporary poiishing systems that can be moved around to blast the sides and pick up from different areas of the bottom.
I am a believer in a perminant polishing system, as you will gather from my posts, this will keep the tank clean, and clean up minor problems, but with a full case of the desel bug,perminant polishing on it's own I don't think it will be enough.
I would also look at changing the filters to larger models, bigger filters cope with much, much more debris before they clog giving you time to sort out the problem.
What about changing the primary filter to a Fleetgard ( or my favorate Raycor 900 or even 1000) and keeping the the Raycor 500 as a perminant polishing filter, but I would clean the tank first if there is access.
AdeOlly
Well-Known Member
Yes I agree a manual clean out would be ideal, but the tanks are not designed for this. They are long and narrow with two sodding great baffles, and the only possible access is at the very aft end, so probably one third at best accessible unless specialist cleaning kit available. I'm not sure that the racors would make a good polishing filter as they have such a small crud capacity. In fact I'm not convinced they're much cop as the primaries either.
noelex
Well-Known Member
This is very common, which is why I think a permantly fuel polishing system from new is a good idea.
It is possible to cut access holes in most tanks, some people even get desperate a cut one into the side, but I would not recommend it.
As well as a perminant polishing system consider installing two filters on each engine with a changeover valve. The clogging tends to occur in rough weather when its not ideal to change filters and bleed the system.
The instant changeover also helps confirm the problem as the engineshould immediately pick up again.
Trundlebug
Well-Known Member
So this is the best filter for marine use, but what filter head should it be used with?
I want to build my own fuel polishing set up like the others on here
Thanks for the indepth advice on this thread so far, as it's been a bit of an eye opener!
The filter head to take a FS1221 filter is Fleetguard part number 3902309S.
I'm sure they are available from other suppliers (if the correct thread of M16 and overall filter diameter of 77mm, sealing face dia 70mm are quoted) but it was both reasonably priced and easy to get them both from the same supplier in my case.
The filter head was only £20.28 plus vat, and although not a stocked item only took 2-3 days to arrive at the Fleetguard outlet.
Hope this helps.
Bubblegtt
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the part number for the filter head, that's just what I was looking for, now to find a local Fleetguard outlet!
henryf
Well-Known Member
Hi guys.
I haven't read every word on here but my humble opinion is that everyone is barking up the wrong tree. It looks like everyone is just running fuel through a filter. These will block as they collect debris. I can't imagine how many filters you would need to clean 1,000 litres or more of contaminated diesel. if I have misunderstood the filters being used I appologise.
What I think you need is something with no moving parts, no filter to block and if it was me something which you could fit to your boat permanently, possibly with an override pump to circulate the fuel through without running the engines if you wanted to purge the tanks.
At Swanwick over the weekend there was a chap braving the elements to show off his fuel purifying product. In essence a very simple device which relies on creating an internal vortex with a series of baffles. No moving parts and UK build quality means they should last for ever so I'm told!
http://www.mlsystem.co.uk/fuel/
Exact choice of filter depends on fuel flow requirements.
I've seen it in action and it works. You simply drain off the crud from the bottom.
I would mount it permanently in the engine room with a pump which can be brought on line through switching valves. Nice and simple. When the engines are running the pump is isolated allowing the boats normal pumps to do the work.
Alternatively you could make up a mobile unit and share it between a few owners.
No connection with the company, I just felt it was a decent bit of kit.
Henry
I haven't read every word on here but my humble opinion is that everyone is barking up the wrong tree. It looks like everyone is just running fuel through a filter. These will block as they collect debris. I can't imagine how many filters you would need to clean 1,000 litres or more of contaminated diesel. if I have misunderstood the filters being used I appologise.
What I think you need is something with no moving parts, no filter to block and if it was me something which you could fit to your boat permanently, possibly with an override pump to circulate the fuel through without running the engines if you wanted to purge the tanks.
At Swanwick over the weekend there was a chap braving the elements to show off his fuel purifying product. In essence a very simple device which relies on creating an internal vortex with a series of baffles. No moving parts and UK build quality means they should last for ever so I'm told!
http://www.mlsystem.co.uk/fuel/
Exact choice of filter depends on fuel flow requirements.
I've seen it in action and it works. You simply drain off the crud from the bottom.
I would mount it permanently in the engine room with a pump which can be brought on line through switching valves. Nice and simple. When the engines are running the pump is isolated allowing the boats normal pumps to do the work.
Alternatively you could make up a mobile unit and share it between a few owners.
No connection with the company, I just felt it was a decent bit of kit.
Henry
Bandit
Well-Known Member
The Misystem filter appears to work very much as the casing of a Racor filter works dropping the fuel to the bowl at the bottom over a cone to seperate out the water and crud and then drawing up to supply a conventional filter down stream.
If I was operating a boat with a very dodgy supply quality of fuel I would filter offline with a polishing ststem that operates when the engines are shut down, preferably filtering fuel to supply a day tank but the boat would have to be built for this. Also if i was operating in a very hot area where the bug grows fast and with high condensation I would consider off line filtering.
On my boat I can strip the crud and water from a sump , I would prefer a sump and a drain valve but I cant get under the tanks to fit one.
I strip the sumps every service and if in doubt of the fuel quality. My normal supplier is automotive quality from a tanker so pretty good.
I check and drain the Racors if necessary before every trip.
I use a proprietary Biocide formulated for diesel and bio diesel, Grotamar 82.
When I bought the boat secondhand it had cloudy fuel, I had it remotely filtered and stripped out sumps.
I know how clean my fuel is by looking at the clear bowls on the Racor and lifting the filters to examine them , if clean i put them back.
When I first got this boat it had Fleetguard FS 1242 fuel filters, the bowls were clean , no water and no crud just clean diesel, so rest assured fuel quality ok or so I thought untill i started to get fuel starvation, remove the filter all looks ok, fit a new filter all fine, Hmm I thinks gets a hacksaw and cut open fleetguard canister and found it was full of black jelly and ****e. Do I want to hack saw a filter open every time ( and so destroying the filter) to check if I have a problem ? no ! I fitted Racors , well Volvo Penta filters actually the same manufacturer with clear bowls and job done.
If I was operating a boat with a very dodgy supply quality of fuel I would filter offline with a polishing ststem that operates when the engines are shut down, preferably filtering fuel to supply a day tank but the boat would have to be built for this. Also if i was operating in a very hot area where the bug grows fast and with high condensation I would consider off line filtering.
On my boat I can strip the crud and water from a sump , I would prefer a sump and a drain valve but I cant get under the tanks to fit one.
I strip the sumps every service and if in doubt of the fuel quality. My normal supplier is automotive quality from a tanker so pretty good.
I check and drain the Racors if necessary before every trip.
I use a proprietary Biocide formulated for diesel and bio diesel, Grotamar 82.
When I bought the boat secondhand it had cloudy fuel, I had it remotely filtered and stripped out sumps.
I know how clean my fuel is by looking at the clear bowls on the Racor and lifting the filters to examine them , if clean i put them back.
When I first got this boat it had Fleetguard FS 1242 fuel filters, the bowls were clean , no water and no crud just clean diesel, so rest assured fuel quality ok or so I thought untill i started to get fuel starvation, remove the filter all looks ok, fit a new filter all fine, Hmm I thinks gets a hacksaw and cut open fleetguard canister and found it was full of black jelly and ****e. Do I want to hack saw a filter open every time ( and so destroying the filter) to check if I have a problem ? no ! I fitted Racors , well Volvo Penta filters actually the same manufacturer with clear bowls and job done.
Trundlebug
Well-Known Member
Hi guys.
I haven't read every word on here but my humble opinion is that everyone is barking up the wrong tree. It looks like everyone is just running fuel through a filter. These will block as they collect debris. I can't imagine how many filters you would need to clean 1,000 litres or more of contaminated diesel. if I have misunderstood the filters being used I appologise.
What I think you need is something with no moving parts, no filter to block and if it was me something which you could fit to your boat permanently, possibly with an override pump to circulate the fuel through without running the engines if you wanted to purge the tanks.
At Swanwick over the weekend there was a chap braving the elements to show off his fuel purifying product. In essence a very simple device which relies on creating an internal vortex with a series of baffles. No moving parts and UK build quality means they should last for ever so I'm told!
http://www.mlsystem.co.uk/fuel/
Exact choice of filter depends on fuel flow requirements.
I've seen it in action and it works. You simply drain off the crud from the bottom.
I would mount it permanently in the engine room with a pump which can be brought on line through switching valves. Nice and simple. When the engines are running the pump is isolated allowing the boats normal pumps to do the work.
Alternatively you could make up a mobile unit and share it between a few owners.
No connection with the company, I just felt it was a decent bit of kit.
Henry
Hi Henry
The MLS system does look an interesting bit of kit I must admit, but there are no specific claims as to its effectiveness. The concept looks OK, but what are the specifics? And equally important, what are the costs? None stated on the website. % moisture removed? Filtration level, particle size?
To answer your question directly, I've now used 4 filters to clean up around 500 litres of quite badly contaminated fuel, and it's pretty much OK now. Total cost in consumable filters has therefore only been around £60.
Ongoing costs will be significantly reduced, as it's taken 24 years to get that bad, so I don't expect that level of filter usage going forward, they should last much longer.
I sized the system to suit my boat and my specific requirements, rather than to suit a professional polishing rig to do every kind of boat. For a larger boat with bigger tanks I would probably have used bigger filters and pump, giving economies of scale although higher initial cost.
Overall I believe it's a case of horses for courses. I'm quite happy with what I've done, although it won't suit everyone. I was never claiming it was a universal panacea, each system has to be fit for purpose.
The aim of publishing this thread was to help other boaters by giving them practical idea on how it can be achieved quite simply at relatively low cost.
There is no need to pay a professional £200+ for a day's work on an annual basis.
DAKA
Well-Known Member
Your post has done exactly that , well done
I dont suppose you ever get the chance to test your tanks now by running on low for 20 miles or so ?
You need a mate not far away in case you get into bother but if your fuel is now polished you should be able to run on low.
In effect you no longer need to carry 1/4 tankful of fuel around that will never be used.
You have removed 1/4 tank of excessive weight, which must also improve mpg
ps I share your concerns regarding the mls, I dont think the centrifugal system will remove emulsified water, in fact I expect a lot of free water will be spun round and placed into suspension
I dont suppose you ever get the chance to test your tanks now by running on low for 20 miles or so ?
You need a mate not far away in case you get into bother but if your fuel is now polished you should be able to run on low.
In effect you no longer need to carry 1/4 tankful of fuel around that will never be used.
You have removed 1/4 tank of excessive weight, which must also improve mpg
ps I share your concerns regarding the mls, I dont think the centrifugal system will remove emulsified water, in fact I expect a lot of free water will be spun round and placed into suspension
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