Fuel Cells on a cruising boat

[Max K]

Seems like a good idea to me virtually no noise and no pollution. Cheapest unit is around half the price of cheapest built-in genset too
Any experiences? I know that they are popular with RTW racers.

Max.

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[Gwylan]

Seems like a good idea to me virtually no noise and no pollution. Cheapest unit is around half the price of cheapest built-in genset too
Any experiences? I know that they are popular with RTW racers.

Max.

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Not a new topic around here.

The finite life of the actual cell and the need to purchase 'special' ethanol makes it quite expensive for the electricity that you get.
Also seems to work best when run consistently, hence the probable need for more batteries to store the generated electricity.

Will be interested to see what the consensus is on this. Continually have this debate with myself and realise that charging off the engine is reltively economic for our sort of boating, unless you are independent cruising for any length of time

 

[Tranona]

Forum search might get up the previous long threads on the subject.

Consensus is not yet practical alternative for long term use. Expensive to buy, run and short life in continuous use. Not an economic alternative to generator if you have high demand nor comparable wit solar/wind for more modest demands. Has attractions for shorter term use if money is no object.

 

[ip485]

Sadly I still think a waste of time. The ethanol is expensive and doesnt last all that long and the output is relatively poor. Of course in the "right" cruising grounds and without the need for a high draw they may be worth considering. Personally having looked at all the options I think solar is the best bet, then a Genset, then a fuel cells (well wind maybe betwen solar and Genset). I opted for 1,000 watts of solar on an arch and a Genset. I used the Genset before, now only for hot water, the solar provides everything I need even in the UK. 600 W is more than enough for most circumstances.

 

[maxi77]

I seem to remember it was not that long ago people made similar comments about solar, now every one has it. The technology is developing and whilst it is probably just for those with specialist needs I suspect that in a few years the cost and performance will be such that not only will they replace generators but they may also replace diesel propulsion.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

I seem to remember it was not that long ago people made similar comments about solar, now every one has it. The technology is developing and whilst it is probably just for those with specialist needs I suspect that in a few years the cost and performance will be such that not only will they replace generators but they may also replace diesel propulsion.

I wouldn't be too hopeful about the cost reducing any time soon. This is actually pretty mature technology; fuel cells of the type available at the moment have been around since the 60s in specialist applications, and the technology hasn't changed much. Fuel cells contain platinum group metals, the same as catalytic converters on cars, so there is at present a high material cost that is unlikely to reduce because of competition from the automotive industry. There is new fuel cell technology on the horizon that uses cheaper materials, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for it to reach market.

 

[maby]

The cells themselves are expensive, particularly taking into account the life expectancy, but just about make sense. The real killer is the cost of the fuel. You can find stuff on eBay that claims to be suitable, but there are question marks over suitability and if it contaminates your already expensive cells, will the warranty cover it?

 

[Mistroma]

I wouldn't be too hopeful about the cost reducing any time soon. This is actually pretty mature technology; fuel cells of the type available at the moment have been around since the 60s in specialist applications, and the technology hasn't changed much. Fuel cells contain platinum group metals, the same as catalytic converters on cars, so there is at present a high material cost that is unlikely to reduce because of competition from the automotive industry. There is new fuel cell technology on the horizon that uses cheaper materials, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for it to reach market.

Spot on assessment. I checked this out several years ago and decided it was too early to move to fuel cells. Then I did some more digging and realised not a lot had changed for a few years (minor improvements, not a step change). I looked at it again a few years later and decided that it would never suit me unless someone made a sudden and unexpected discovery of a new approach. Of course it's always possible that a huge government subsidy would suddenly make it the way to go (political change rather than technological change). Can't see any reason that would happen and solar currently provides the best return on cash spent. Obviously not as good as good a reliable 24x7 supply but much better value.

 

[Max K]

Sadly I still think a waste of time. The ethanol is expensive and doesnt last all that long and the output is relatively poor. Of course in the "right" cruising grounds and without the need for a high draw they may be worth considering. Personally having looked at all the options I think solar is the best bet, then a Genset, then a fuel cells (well wind maybe betwen solar and Genset). I opted for 1,000 watts of solar on an arch and a Genset. I used the Genset before, now only for hot water, the solar provides everything I need even in the UK. 600 W is more than enough for most circumstances.

Let me just examine a couple of your points.

First, the fuel is methanol and this, in EFOY approved form, can be obtained widely here in Greece now. If not immediately, in a couple of days.

Secondly, what do you sail that allows the mounting of "1000 watts of solar cells" on a stern arch? By my calculation, you would need 6sq. mtrs. for that. Quite a lot of windage! What I might get 100watts peak here, you don't stand a chance of reaching in a typical UK summer.

Max.

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[ip485]

Max

I most certainly dont know all the answers but I spent a fair amount of time thinking about them.

I started out with a 8KW Genset and of course an engine. I found after a day at anchor, or without shore power for what ever reason, or sailing (without using the engine) the batteries took a pounding. I have 800 Ah, large fridge and freezer, radar, autopilot that gets used pretty much all the time, two chart plotters and other bits and pieces. The Genset was pretty hopeless for recharging because of the lengthy run time which is also a very bad way of using a big(ish) Genset running at low load for a long time. The engine was almost as bad. Crusing for a week and without prolonged use of the engine or Genset (or resorting to overnight hook up) the batteries would steadily drop to 50%, the point below which I prefer to never allow them to discharge. I would resort to runnning the Genset for 3 or 4 hours. The charger is capable of 80Ah but obvioulsy the batteries are limited by the rate they can absorb the charge and the controller will not allow that rate to be exceeded.

So I added solar. Three domestic panels, two on the arch and one of the deck each 340W with an Outback FlexMax 80 Mppt controller. They have the advantage of silently providing a constant "trickle" of power which keeps up with the total useage even in a British winter albeit to be fair requiring a sunny day every so often. In the summer they more than cope with whatever demand is placed on the bank. Yes they do require a reasonable sized arch and you would struggle with two on an arch on a boat smaller than say 35 foot, but equally the panel could be stepped down as could the useage. There is no doubt an arch is the only practical way to go.

I considered wind and towed but came to the conclusion that in the Med for example there are long periods when there isnt a great deal of wind, and, of course, at anchor, towed is possibly not going to help very much .

Finally fuel cells. Well I am pleased to hear Ethanol is reasonably readily available in the Med. However I wanted a solution that made me as independent as possible. Having done the calculations I would need a pretty large fuel cell and would also need to carry a pretty large load of Ethanol (and it is not cheap). I guess they are pretty reliable but there is also a lot more going on than with a solar array and I suspect much greater chance of mechanical failure.

Personally I think solar panels are far more likely to develop further because there is a huge demand to develop the technology so I think we will see more efficient panels and panels that can be intergrated into a boat more readily and lower cost than the existing flexible panels. MPPT controllers are pretty mature technology so I dont suppose there is room for much development there.

In the same way I suspect fuel cells are reasonably mature technology but perhaps the car industry will provide incentive to develop the technology further. However I think the cost and availability of Ethanol that can be used in the current crop of marine cells is a significant disadvantage. I think EFOY, assuming it is possible, have made a mistake in (I suspect profitering) by requiring EFOY cartridges to be used in their cells and if ethanol could be pumped into a dedicated tank on a yacht and drawn from the tank to run a fuel cell they might be more attractive, given than ethanol is in fact reasonably cheap. I appreciate they may be good reason for not doing so.

So for all those reasons solar seemed the right solution (for me).

I only use the Genset now for hot water (wish I could find a better solution) but drawing 3Kw off the batteries through the inverter is not a good idea (not least that my inverter will not support that load). I know an Eber. might be a better alternative but at a pretty substantial cost just to heat water. However the Genset is good for that because the run is short and at high load and its a good opportunity to use any 240V items.

The batteries are even sufficient to run the smaller AC compressor to just cool the sleeping cabin in the evening.

Yes the solar does produce a lot of windage but it hasnt proved an issue so far but with 23 tons and a long keel I guess that helps.

In my case it looks like this

View attachment 52224

 

[Tryweryn]

ip485 how does it affect the handling or in bad weather? Mine to go up is only 1,5 by 0.6 meters.

 

[ip485]

Tryweryn

I havent noticed the arch in any weather up to a gale. To be fair 23 odd tons and a long keel provides a degree of stability that would not be comparable with a lighter vessel and my performance up wind is not, shall we say, comparable with a well honed fin keeler.

I havent set up a system yet, but I reckon the panels could also be used as a very effective means of collecting rain water. They just need a lip around each panel to make a shallow box section with a tube from a point in the lip to take the water into a holding tank. I reckon it could work very well.

My other idea is I would have thought it would be realtively easy to use the underside of each panel to attach a thin array of water tubing, pump the water aound the system and in that way have a very reliable source of hot water (assuming the sun is shining).

Food for thought.

I am however very pleased with my ourboard gantry. I think cranes look a bit cumbersome so I had a tube attached to the arch with a roller bearing car on the underside. That way you extend the tube over the transom, winch the outboard off the stern rail, slide it over the transom and lower it directly onto the tender. It actually works a treat. It always scared me to death manhandling the outboard onto the tender, not least because of the weight but also in any waves it was an accident waiting to happen.

It is well worth thinking of everything and anything you might want to use the arch for when you "commission" the design as it is so much easier to do so at the same time.