French Rules

[chas]

Can any of you yotties based in France please give the definititive answer to what exactly is French law on this one? I have always understood that you needed a CEVNI to use French inland waters but did not need any qualification to visit a French port. Another sailing organisation wheich is arranging a trip to France seems to be saying that I need an "ICC" to visit a port and the French have started a purge.

I have been sailing for about 50 years now but do not have any qualifications (although I am (was) qualified to command a warship!) and in that time have visited France numerous times. I have never been asked to produce anything, except the ocassional quick look at the boat's papers.

Has anything changed recently?

 

[Magic_Sailor]

Chas

I do think this area is ambiguous with various definitions at to what constitues an inland waterway - non-tidal, past a lock gate etc. However, my direct experience was that the French authorities do just what they want and interpret things as suits them.



Last year we were stopped and inspected twice and I heard that a vessel leaving Honfleur was chased, stopped and fined 800E on the spot.

My advice would be to get the CEVNI. It's cheap and easy - so why take the risk.

Magic

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[tcm]

We have a boat in france. I am afraid that french authorities retain rather higher degrees of powers than anyone who might inspect your boat in the UK. By this I mean that frexample, eventually, after court case, the MCA in the UK successfully fined a boater for having insufficient safety gear on board his boat. But in France, the gendarmes and douaniers have powers (or exercise powers anyway) to impose such fines on the spot. Failure to pay the fine means that they force you to stay in the port until you do pay.

As an example, we were in Marseille in a uk registered boat, three douaniers turned up, all our papers in ordert BUT the offical P1 registry doc was in another port for safekeeping over winter and we'd forgotten to bring it with us. I knew we needed it so I'd had a faxed copy sent over to us the night before. No good said the jackboot gang - you need the original, and they imposed a 1000FF (£100) fine there and then. Now, I had no real idea whether this was true or not, but needed to get going - and of course that's the problem with on-the-spot fines- The cost of protesting, coming back later and so on is far higher than paying the bloody fine and having done with it.

So, I wd have (and do have) qualification details on board. The ICC is very basic - as are the french qualifications for skippering boats (although ahem they're in french...). It's quite a lot (in fact almost entirely) up to the guys who turn up whether they'll fine you, and they usually have guns.

IMHO, if you are qualified to command a warship - take the document along, and perhaps even refer to yourself as "Commander". Put a nice photograph of yourself on it and stamp it with something from WH Smiths - cos if they do inspect your boat, they'll want to see lots of bit of official-looking paper, the more the merrier. It's a good idea to get them a drink (of bottled water) rather than guiltily or irately standing about because they have enough rules up their sleeves to impose a little fine and insist that its is paid, on the spot. And of course, they have those guns too.

Good luck.




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[chas]

Thanks - I am not too worried about the CEVNI as I dont intend to go further than the port. It is the threat of being asked for an ICC which concerns me. Did you have an ICC when you were stopped?

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[chas]

Good advice! Thanks - I will see if I can find it!

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[Roberto]

I have been checked by every possible French authority in French and also foreign registered boats, they always wanted to see all the papers but never asked a licence. As I have a licence, I once asked if they wanted to check it but they smiled "le permis n'est pas necessaire"

At sea and for sailing boats.

They asked for the VHF operator certificate, and once for a personal id as we were heading to Jersey. Apart from all the ships papers





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[charles_reed]

The douaniers are very much a law unto themselves and have a % share-out of the on-the-spot fines their base exacts - they also have a pecking order of which base is doing best.

So if you are going anywhere near the Gironde, La Rance, Seine to Honfleur you'll be well advised to have the ICC.

However nearly all recognise the significance of a blue ensign (I am assuming RNSA) and your original watchkeeping certificate will prove even more effective.

I got to know the lads in la Rochelle quite well and they bought the drinks, 7 were ex-Marine Nationale.

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[Sybarite]

As far as sailing on the sea is concerned if you are in a boat under 25 tonnes and sail is the principal means of propulsion - applies to nearly every sailing boat where the sails are not just steadinging sails - you do not need a license. If you are on a motor boat, you need a "permis" if the engine is 10hp or more - hence the number of 9.9hp o/b motors.

You also need a "permis" if you undertake any form of remunerated activity on the water eg charter skipper.


John


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[Birdseye]

In the EC there is an agreement requiring mutual recognition of qualifications. In theory, this means that everywhere in the EC you do not need an ICC, because as a British boat you do not need any form of licensing in the UK. In real life, you are in a foreign country, subject to their legal system and language. So its best to have as many bits of paper as you can, and the more official they look, the better.
And a pleasant attitude together with attempting to speak their language helps, as does the offer of a beer. If your wife / partner is young and pretty let her deal with the paperwork.
Naturally, the French thinking the way they do, if you are a holidaymaker and you hire a French boat in France from a French company you seem to be able to sail wherever you want without the slightest qualification or paperwork. Plus ca change ...

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[Sybarite]

Re: French Rules CORRECTION

My information is basically correct but a little out of date : In fact for a motor boat you need a 'permis' if the motor is more than 6hp (and not 10hp). The following is a cut & paste from an official government site.

http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/ARBO/19090201-NXVAL805.html

Basically the first paragraph confirms that you do not need a 'permis' for a sailing boat even equipped with an auxiliary motor :

<< Les différents permis de navigation en mer

Dans quel cas un titre de conduite est-il obligatoire?

Depuis le 1er janvier 1993, un titre de conduite est obligatoire pour piloter en mer un navire de plaisance à moteur lorsque la puissance réelle du ou des moteurs est supérieure à 4,5 kw (6 cv). Il n'est pas exigé de titre de conduite pour les navires de plaisance à voile même équipés d'un moteur auxiliaire.

Permis antérieurs

Tous les titulaires des permis délivrés antérieurement au 1er janvier 1993 (permis A, B et C) conservent leurs prérogatives. La limite des 25 tonneaux n'est plus opposable aux titulaires du permis B.
Le titre de conduite en mer des navires de plaisance à moteur donne le droit de piloter uniquement à titre d'agrément.

Les différents titres de conduite

La carte mer est valable pour une navigation accomplie de jour, à moins de 5 milles d'un abri, à bord d'un navire dont la puissance motrice est supérieure à 4,5 kw (6 cv) et inférieure ou égale à 37 kw (50 cv).
Le permis mer côtier est valable pour une navigation limitée à 5 milles d'un abri. Le permis mer hauturier est valable pour toute autre navigation.

Conditions d'obtention
Les titulaires du permis A ou du permis mer côtier pourront obtenir le permis mer hauturier après avoir réussi une épreuve théorique de navigation.
Pour être candidat à l'examen du permis, vous devez être âgé de 16 ans au moins.>>

John

Any fool can criticise, condemn, and complain, and most fools do. - Benjamin Franklin


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[chas]

Thanks for all the advice - I am now reasonably confident that I am alright as long as no lock gates are penetrated so I will go after all!

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[extravert]

> In theory, this means that everywhere in the EC you do not need an ICC,
> because as a British boat you do not need any form of licensing in the UK...

That's a world-wide international agreement, isn't it, (ie. not just EU wide)?

<hr width=100% size=1>One day, I want to be a real sailor. In the mean time I'll just keep trying.