French inspect life jackets...

This is precisely the point that I am making. You will see that there are no compulsory safety equipment requirements for private leisure craft.

This thread is about whether another state can impose any of their regulations on you, to which the answer is normally no, providing you are not breaking any of their other laws or the general laws of the sea to do with navigation. The Solas V requirements are about behaviour not equipment and are also universal.

The RYA provides guidance for what you have to do if you visit a foreign country, which is of no concern of the MCA - which is why they do not give advice. Everything is in the public domain - UN Convention and UN Resolution 14/40 are the main sources. However, the RYA on behalf of members collates all the information, represents all of us in the development and implementation of rules and laws that affect us such as the upcoming E Borders and proposed implementation of the drink/sailing law. They may not achieve what we want, but they are our represenatative body. Therefore not unreasonable that detailed information is only available to members who pay for them to do the work.

Actually I have summarised all the key principles on at least 3 threads in the last year, but always I refer to the "official" RYA advice, which is well explained on pages 17-19 of the autumn members magazine.

And the RYA is not a "company" but a members organisation, funded by members.
 
Isn't this the relevant passage:-
Vessels claiming the right of passage must complete a continuous and expeditious passage though territorial waters and may not engage in any activity which does not have direct bearing on the passage. The vast majority of cruising yachts will however be going out for dinner, sight seeing, shopping and generally making use of facilities ashore in their destination port; they may also visit several ports within the Coastal State. These activities bring pleasure boaters under the jurisdiction of the Coastal State and you could be required to adhere to all of their regulations. ?
 
Yes, but you need to read the next paragraph in the article you lifted this from, which lays out the principle of "comity" that I referred to earlier and explains why coastal states don't normally impose their own regulations on a boat registered in another Flag State.
 
In answer to your last question, probably none! They are so rare they would make it into the yachting press at least if not the xenophobic end of the red tops.
 
French registered boats have regulations concerning what they must carry on board and these were modified last year or maybe two years ago, but nevertheless are for French registered vessels. The list of stuff required is in the French chandlery catalogues or the almanacs like Bloc Marine's Votre Livre De Bord if anyone is interested. British registered vessels must comply with the British rules, which for normal sized non-commercial or non-coded vessels are very few.

British rules said that British vessels in foreign waters must be registered and International rules say the rules of the country of registration must be followed. The French used this to insist that all British vessels visting their waters must be registered. This is why the simpler Part 3 SSR register was introduced so that it is easier to register than the original 'Blue Book' or Part 1. French authorities like Customs, Police and the like frequently ask owners of British vessels for their registration papers, passports etc that has been the case for years and years.

If Brits get stopped and cannot produce the Registration documents they WILL be fined. Getting argumentative and uppety as some can do will often result in a similar Gallic response and IMO that is when requests to see things like flares, liferaft certificates, lifejackets and the like are made. It may well not apply by law to British registered vessels but try debating that with an armed group of pi$$ed off Customs people! Of course if you cannot produce the Registration papers then you can hardly claim to be a British registered vessel and exempt from French rules for equipment carried.

We are frequent flyers in French waters and have been stopped and boarded both at sea (even outside the 12 mile limit) and in anchorages and harbours. This has been mostly by Customs but occasionally by the local Gendarmerie doing a proxy job. We have always been treated politely and never once had a problem but the key is to relax and enjoy the interuption as part of the fun of going foreign rather than to show irritation. Ask for 'une fiche' too as confirmation you have been visited once that trip and you can show that if stopped again, I keep ours with the ship's papers so even a year later they can see that we are 'regulars'. We were boarded for example last summer in Les Isles De Glenans which is a common place and were only asked for Registration papers and passports followed by a few questions about where we had come from and were going to. We were given a more thorough look over once some 13 miles off Cherbourg when they looked in lockers and even read the logbook, but again no reference to flares or other stuff.

I think another way to get dragged into the safety gear arguments is to have a boat that looks like it is a disaster waiting to happen. If for example there are no lifebuoys or lights or suchlike visible it might start them off. It may be unlawful to fine a British regisred vessel but they may well do so, shrug their shoulders and say well just make a claim if you say it is wrong. Good luck with that!
 
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Yes, but you need to read the next paragraph in the article you lifted this from, which lays out the principle of "comity" that I referred to earlier and explains why coastal states don't normally impose their own regulations on a boat registered in another Flag State.

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True - but they're also within their rights to do so, if they so choose.

A lot has to do with attitude - as has already been mentioned by others. Remain friendly, don't look annoyed and it will be over in a jiffy. Get stroppy at your peril. Officials are the same the world over.

We were boarded entering Cherbourg this summer - had pasports and ships papers ready as soon as I spotted them approaching + a thermos of black coffee. They were off the boat in 3 minutes - cursory look at the SSR and the pasports.
 
No, under the UN convention they do not have a right to impose anything. However, if you read the article further you will then find a passage that explains they may place other restrictions or take other actions under other laws that might be confused with rights under the Convention and comity.

Read the thread on liveaboard on current happenings in Spain for a flavour of what could happen to a visiting boat - however it is nothing to do with freedom to navigate which is what we are discussing here.

I used the word normally because there are some grey areas such as the Greek requirement to keep a specific type of transit log, which is equally applicable to Greek yachts. However, when I took my boat off the Greek register and onto the SSR I dumped some of the mandatory equipment and equipped it to the MCA Cat B code which is a much higher standard than the Greek requirements.

And yes, local officials can cause problems either through ignorance (rare) or bad hair day. However, see Robin's post above and your own experience which is the norm.
 
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This is precisely the point that I am making. You will see that there are no compulsory safety equipment requirements for private leisure craft.

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Because it is now snowing and my outside plans for today are totally scuppered, I thought I would throw in a squib or two....

From the MCA site I take this titbit and suggest that the French, the UK or any other nation could (and should?) have anyone without a cone, anchor ball etc., though it doesn't seem to cover flares. I have also heard that some foreigners eat children!
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"It is of paramount importance that all vessels at sea comply with the International Regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea. These are contained within the Merchant Shipping regulations that also set out the penalties for non-compliance, which could be a fine of up to £50,000 in serious cases. The Regulations require that all vessels that proceed to sea are correctly provided with, and exhibit, navigation lights, shapes and sound signalling devices consistent with the vessels' length, type and circumstances. Navigation lights are required if the vessel is likely to operate at night or in poor visibility by day. Owners should ensure that the lights they provide on their vessels are of approved types, also that they are displayed in their correct position(s) on the vessel.

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Yes, these are universal requirements. The issues debated here are about specific registration requirements where there are essentially none in the UK, but often very detailed and subject to inspection and enforcement in other countries.

The convention and laws are primarily intended for merchant ships where individual Flag State requirements vary and many ships are registered in states that have lower requirements than others, and possibly less rigorous enforcement. However, there is a move towards giving more power to Coastal States to enforce rules that becoming more universal through the work of the IMO. However, this does not really extend to yachts in any meaningful way.
 
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OTOH, carrying a liferaft is not compulsory, but if you do have one it must be 'in date'. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Not really common sense - if you're not required to have one, what do they care if it's in date?

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But isn't it like UK rule about cars : If indicators fitted then must work, if not fitted - no problem.
 
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Hence while Australia respects the laws and standards of the country of foreign flagged ships there is the legal provision for ships to be impounded in port if safety gear (ie lifeboats) were in poor condition.

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This actually happens in many countries as well as Oz. UK has prevented various ships from sailing out of UK ports after safety inspections and in a few cases - structural inspections. Vessels deemed unsafe to proceed to open waters.

Problem with Oz though and other MN persons here I'm sure know about it .... Oz dockies / wharfies / stevedores are or were at least extremely unionised and would down tools at slightest hint of anything like a Liverpool splice in a rope, weighted heaving line, Oi - pick up that effin rope ...... I can remember in Sydney our ship sitting for 24hrs idle because of an inspection and a few items weren't produced on the spot. (Not a thing we objected to considering one of the Nurses hostels overlooked the dock we were in !!).
 
My point was that what many people see as their right to adhere only to UK regulations might only apply on "a continuous and expeditious passage though territorial waters". Once you enter a foreign port then it seems you are reliant on comity and you don't have absolute rights.
 
Suggest you read the article in the RYA magazine which expresses practice much better than I can. The fact that so many boats move around so freely suggests that the distinction between "innocent passage" and complete acceptance of Flag State requirements through comity is not an issue.

The restrictions or additional requirements placed on a boat in some countries are normally under different legal regimes - for example boat tax in Portugal and the "matriculation" legislation in Spain. They both come from tax law not the law of the sea.
 
Are we all clear now? Probably not. These long and rambling threads tend to confuse the issue even further. Never mind whose waters you are in or whose coast you are visiting, there are some basic and commonsense provisions that should not need enforcing:

1 Lifejackets, in proper working order, should be available for every crew member. Plus lifelines
2 A set of in-date flates, appropriate to the cruising ground should be carried. We also have a set in a grab bag together with the emergency kit.
3 Fire extinguishers of the appropriate size and in date should installed in key locations.
4 We have a DSC radio ( the alarm can be a real pain, but the set would be an edvantage in an MOB situation.
5 Because we have recently completed a series of fairly long cruises, we also have a liferaft and an Epirb ( which may be OTT for the type of sailing that many people do)

The list of safety kit that you could include is pretty endless, but I think the above is a commonsense package and I can see no reason why you would want to sail with out of date kit with or without legislative pressure.

As to the stop and search situation, I suspect we will see more of this in the campaigns against drugs, illegal immigrants and anti-terrorist measures. In my experience these guys are polite, not super friendly, but efficient and if you just let them get on with it and don't start coming the Great Briton, it will be a painless exercise.
 
Commonsense is one thing and my guess is that pretty well all Brit boats in foreign waters will be well equipped, that is our nature. However we cannot be expected to know every little regulatory requirement of every country we visit and some of their requirements may be rather unusual to us. French regs for example require a ship's bell as well as a signal mirror, neither of which are common for us Brits, although we do carry a signal mirror in our grab bag and an old CD would work. French regs also require (or used to, the latest changes may be different) a sextant and tables for navigation more than 200mls from a safe harbour. What a shame that the same regulations do not require you to know how to use it! Likewise you are required to carry a radar reflector, no requirement though to have it out of it's locker or to be of a sensible size or hoisted the right way up. Then again there are rules re size and type of navigation lights that are broken routinely on even some brand new French boats despite having a certificate that says they are approved.
 
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You are also required to show your registration on demand and can get an on the spot fine if you don't. This applies to French boats as well as UK.

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Sorry for repeating the same question a third time, I should probably be better informed but I'm struggling with google.

How much is the on the spot fine? What's is the offence called?
 
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a sextant and tables for navigation more than 200mls from a safe harbour.

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By its own definition that would imply boarding in international waters, no?
 
The boat on the next berth to me in St Vaast was found to have a photocopy of the SSR certificate on board instead of the original. The skipper was escorted to an ATM machine to withdraw the necessary funds. From memory the fine was about 150 Euros.
 
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