Forbsie
New member
Anyone in Poole on Saturday that could look at a Water Mota diesel engine with me? I have no idea what I'm looking at and would welcome any help in deciding whether to buy this engine (seemingly a 1.6l Ford).
Free lunch in Poole
- Thread starter Forbsie
- Start date
BarryH
Active member
I'm in poole on sat, how old is this one, if its one of the earlier blocks then i rekon the most you can expect from it is about 50hp. Can you see it running! Main thing on these is plenty of oil changes otherwise they tend to wear fairly quickly, I've been runing (or ruining) ford oil burners in the vans for a while now. Cambelts are another weak point.
Wha'dya mean "I'm always playing with this engine" its the only way to get it to run!
Wha'dya mean "I'm always playing with this engine" its the only way to get it to run!
aztec
Active member
i could be about if you need me, these are the same engines as i am fitting to my old boat. probably won't be able to stay for lunch though. i'll PM with my pphonr number just in case.
regards, steve.
ahh say what you like.... what's done is done!
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/s.amos/index.html
regards, steve.
ahh say what you like.... what's done is done!
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/s.amos/index.html
Forbsie
New member
Thanks for that, Barry. He reckons that it's 30hp and my Sonic drive will only take up to 40hp. It's only for river work so that's no problem. I find that going faster than 6 knots shakes up the Krug too much. He is going to get it so I can see it running on Saturday. As for the oil, my car drinks a pint every 230 miles and says so in the manual. So I'm used to checking but is this going to be a problem in a boat?
If you are around on Saturday, I would really appreciate some advice.
If you are around on Saturday, I would really appreciate some advice.
BarryH
Active member
Seems like you me and aztec could spend your money for you! What sort of money is it. If I remember correctly PBO did a bit on marinizing these ford jobs a while ago. See the PM
Wha'dya mean "I'm always playing with this engine" its the only way to get it to run!
Wha'dya mean "I'm always playing with this engine" its the only way to get it to run!
Forbsie
New member
"What sort of money?" Well it's definitely none of this nouveau riche nonsense! We're talking Old Money. It's in a jar beside my bed, thruppennies, sixpences and the odd groat. Certainly enough to cover lunch as long as Terence Conran hasn't moved to Poole.
On a more serious note they are asking for £900.
On a more serious note they are asking for £900.
Chris771
New member
Which engine is it the old 1600 crossflow cortina which was marinised and dieselised (yes it did start life as a petrol engine) and called a Sea Panther. Or the later XLD 416 Overhead Cam Engine as fitted into Escorts and Fiestas?
The old Sea Panther could be persuaded to produce up to about 30 hp in newish condition. They took a 1600xflow cortina MK2 engine and modified it as follows:-
Crank:- Widened the big end bearing webs and fitted stronger rods and different pistons to up the compression ratio.
Head:- Threw away the sparkplugs and fitted injectors instead (honest!!) skimmed the head for a bit more compression.
Block: Fitted new front plate with Lucas injector pump gear driven off the cam pinion, injector timing adjusted by slackening bolts and moving slotted pump drive.
Cooling: Bowman Heat exchanger and Jabsco Pump on an indirect system.
Starting: Except on a hot and almost new engine there was never enough compression to start them on compression alone, no matter how hot. Scary!!!!!!!!
The party piece:- As the spark plug oles had injectors in them there was nowhere to fit glowplugs. So, the inlet manifold was modified with a single glowplug and a solenoid which allowed diesel to drip on it. After pressing the preheat button a foul smelling bonfire would be started (after about 40-50 seconds) in the inlet manifold.
You could now spin the engine over on the starter and hopefully it would suck fire into the combustion chambers and start. It would then suck most of the smokey stench out of the engineroom. The ability to start relied on a good battery, starter, glow plug and tight resistance free electrical connections.
If the engine stalled, you could re-start it again in less than a minute (this is the voice of experience) which could be a bit disconcerting if the boat was still proceeding towards a solid object whilst you re-lit the bonfire.
I took the Sea Panther out of a Freeman 24 I had many years ago. The only good thing was that WaterMota in Newton Abbot allowed me an amazing £700 against all the marininsing bits I bought to marinise a then almost new 416 from a 15 month old crashed Orion.
The marinisation was quite straightforward and the XLD 416 theoretically produced about 45hp at 4800 rpm. I limited it to about 3400 rpm where it produced about 35 hp. If you limited one to about 2800rpm it would produce about the 30 hp you want and be so lightly stressed as to last for ages with a suitable torque loading (ie fit it with a prop which will allow it to rev to about 3200 rpm, then govern it back to 2800, doing it that way elminates all the mathematics yet loads the engine sufficiently to prevent bore glazing). The other advantages are (after the first morning glowplug start) that the engine always starts on compression on the first turn and does not fill the engineroom with soot and diesel fumes that the old Sea Panther does, also is normally oiltight. The XLD 416 engine is based on the same block casting as the old Xflow block, so the same engine mounts fit. A different adapter plate is required (available from Watermota or Lancing) to accommodate the different starter position. The later XLD 418 (1800cc)has a different block so mounting is more difficult.
The XLD 416 was quite a pleasant engine ( a bit noisy by the latest standards), ultra reliable. I fitted it to the Freeman about 13/14 years ago now and the guy who now owns her has yet to come back and complain. It used to propel the Freeman at about 9.5 kts at about 3400 rpm at which point it was overtorquing. However at 3200 rpm it would do about 8.5kts (beyond displacement speed) very nose up, climbing the wall, but never getting there. At that speed it consumed about 0.5 galls/hr. At about 2500 and 5 or so knots it used about half as much diesel.
So, whilst I would recommend the XLD 416 1600, I personally could not stand the smelly sweaty diesel smokey stench which came from the Sea Panther xflow unit, which is now incredibly archaic these days. (Seen many MK2 Cortina bits around recently?).
If it is the xflow unit I don't think I would want to pay much beyond £500 and maybe about £800-900 for a good XLD 416. The new price of the latter was about £3000. My home marinised version (almost identical to the Watermota, I bought a lot of bits from them, but added a few ideas of my own) cost me about £1300 (I paid £600 for the base engine). Hendy Lennox in Havant used to do a blanking plate to cover the hole left by removing the road car servo vacuum pump.
The XLD 416 engines seemed to be more reliable than the 418s.
If you decide to do a DIY marinisation I can send you photos and help with advice.
Chris
www.impact-computers.net/boat/cruiser.htm
The old Sea Panther could be persuaded to produce up to about 30 hp in newish condition. They took a 1600xflow cortina MK2 engine and modified it as follows:-
Crank:- Widened the big end bearing webs and fitted stronger rods and different pistons to up the compression ratio.
Head:- Threw away the sparkplugs and fitted injectors instead (honest!!) skimmed the head for a bit more compression.
Block: Fitted new front plate with Lucas injector pump gear driven off the cam pinion, injector timing adjusted by slackening bolts and moving slotted pump drive.
Cooling: Bowman Heat exchanger and Jabsco Pump on an indirect system.
Starting: Except on a hot and almost new engine there was never enough compression to start them on compression alone, no matter how hot. Scary!!!!!!!!
The party piece:- As the spark plug oles had injectors in them there was nowhere to fit glowplugs. So, the inlet manifold was modified with a single glowplug and a solenoid which allowed diesel to drip on it. After pressing the preheat button a foul smelling bonfire would be started (after about 40-50 seconds) in the inlet manifold.
You could now spin the engine over on the starter and hopefully it would suck fire into the combustion chambers and start. It would then suck most of the smokey stench out of the engineroom. The ability to start relied on a good battery, starter, glow plug and tight resistance free electrical connections.
If the engine stalled, you could re-start it again in less than a minute (this is the voice of experience) which could be a bit disconcerting if the boat was still proceeding towards a solid object whilst you re-lit the bonfire.
I took the Sea Panther out of a Freeman 24 I had many years ago. The only good thing was that WaterMota in Newton Abbot allowed me an amazing £700 against all the marininsing bits I bought to marinise a then almost new 416 from a 15 month old crashed Orion.
The marinisation was quite straightforward and the XLD 416 theoretically produced about 45hp at 4800 rpm. I limited it to about 3400 rpm where it produced about 35 hp. If you limited one to about 2800rpm it would produce about the 30 hp you want and be so lightly stressed as to last for ages with a suitable torque loading (ie fit it with a prop which will allow it to rev to about 3200 rpm, then govern it back to 2800, doing it that way elminates all the mathematics yet loads the engine sufficiently to prevent bore glazing). The other advantages are (after the first morning glowplug start) that the engine always starts on compression on the first turn and does not fill the engineroom with soot and diesel fumes that the old Sea Panther does, also is normally oiltight. The XLD 416 engine is based on the same block casting as the old Xflow block, so the same engine mounts fit. A different adapter plate is required (available from Watermota or Lancing) to accommodate the different starter position. The later XLD 418 (1800cc)has a different block so mounting is more difficult.
The XLD 416 was quite a pleasant engine ( a bit noisy by the latest standards), ultra reliable. I fitted it to the Freeman about 13/14 years ago now and the guy who now owns her has yet to come back and complain. It used to propel the Freeman at about 9.5 kts at about 3400 rpm at which point it was overtorquing. However at 3200 rpm it would do about 8.5kts (beyond displacement speed) very nose up, climbing the wall, but never getting there. At that speed it consumed about 0.5 galls/hr. At about 2500 and 5 or so knots it used about half as much diesel.
So, whilst I would recommend the XLD 416 1600, I personally could not stand the smelly sweaty diesel smokey stench which came from the Sea Panther xflow unit, which is now incredibly archaic these days. (Seen many MK2 Cortina bits around recently?).
If it is the xflow unit I don't think I would want to pay much beyond £500 and maybe about £800-900 for a good XLD 416. The new price of the latter was about £3000. My home marinised version (almost identical to the Watermota, I bought a lot of bits from them, but added a few ideas of my own) cost me about £1300 (I paid £600 for the base engine). Hendy Lennox in Havant used to do a blanking plate to cover the hole left by removing the road car servo vacuum pump.
The XLD 416 engines seemed to be more reliable than the 418s.
If you decide to do a DIY marinisation I can send you photos and help with advice.
Chris
www.impact-computers.net/boat/cruiser.htm
ccscott49
Active member
Must be a lotus!
Forbsie
New member
You're right, Chris, it's a Sea Panther and by your description, sounds interesting to say the least. So, going back to basics, if I were to start phoning round for an auto unmarinized engine, what would be good engines to look for. You've mentioned the Orion, will most newer Ford diesels be suitable? Boatone also suggested Mercedes diesel out of the old 190D. There seem to be so many options but not that many marinized engines of this size available on the 2nd hand market. My partner in the boat has a heart attack every time I suggest that we put a new engine just to get the thing moving.
Are there any modern diesels that aren't suitable for conversion and are there any that stand out as being ideal?
BTW, your post was incredibly interesting and useful. Have you thought about writing a book?
Are there any modern diesels that aren't suitable for conversion and are there any that stand out as being ideal?
BTW, your post was incredibly interesting and useful. Have you thought about writing a book?
ccscott49
Active member
I would look for an already marinised engine, have a look at the www.boatsandengines.co.uk site, or one of the others. I wouldn't be wanting something that started life as a cortina petrol engine within 200 yards of me!
Forbsie
New member
No, an old Merc. Wouldn't mind a Lotus, though, as long as it wasn't one of the new girlie ones.
Forbsie
New member
Aw, and I was hoping that I could raft next to you. :-(
Colin, did you mean www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk. If so, I've been checking it daily. The reason I am now considering marinising an engine is, with all the advice I'm getting such as avoid Volvos, BMCs, old engines, if I don't do something soon, I'll lose the entire season and will probably still be engineless.
I still have the option to fall back to an outboard but I'm still a long way from that.
If two people would say "Go for that engine" then I would do it in a flash. I've never had any involvement in engines and am really out of my depth here to the extent that I'm even jealous of Depsol 'cause at least he has an engine!
Colin, did you mean www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk. If so, I've been checking it daily. The reason I am now considering marinising an engine is, with all the advice I'm getting such as avoid Volvos, BMCs, old engines, if I don't do something soon, I'll lose the entire season and will probably still be engineless.
I still have the option to fall back to an outboard but I'm still a long way from that.
If two people would say "Go for that engine" then I would do it in a flash. I've never had any involvement in engines and am really out of my depth here to the extent that I'm even jealous of Depsol 'cause at least he has an engine!
ccscott49
Active member
Ah! Yes the old mercs were a bit of an oilmans blessing! I agree, the new lotus/isuzu thingy is a bit.....wel girlish, like a harley sportster! I like the old esprit! and of course the seven and elan, owned three of the beasts, you always had to go home the way you left home, to pick up all the bits that fell off!
ccscott49
Active member
I understand, yes I did mena that site, also theres a fishing boats for sale or something that has some engines. and theres another site aswell, somebody should be able to advise, I wish I was overthere sometimes to give people a hand with this kind of thing. Trouble is when you start thinking about marinising an engine, you should really start with a known good engine, one that is marinised quite often and all the parts are available for it, then use new or nearly new marinising parts, mountings and all new hoses, stainless clips etc. and if you're going to do it right, you want to paint everything and use new nuts, bolts etc in stainless, it all starts to get expensive, plus you need to know what you are doing and have the tools to do the job. A lot of people try to do this, thinking it's just a bolt on job, it isn't, sometimes you need extended studs for the manifolds/heat exchangers and all manner of modifications (admittedly most of them simple) but all this needs to taken into consideration. I am not trying to put you off, but if a jobs worth doing, it's worth doing right, especially on a boat, on the tidal thames. I would have a word with some of the marinising companies first and decide on an engine, then maybe think a kit of parts from somebody, this will still save a bunch of money, but you will atleast know the parts will fit and you have advice close at hand. all this is of course IMHO. By the way Ferrier couldn't believe it"!!
Forbsie
New member
What couldn't he believe? That me, a red-blooded Aberdonian, was offering a free lunch? ;-))
ccscott49
Active member
NO! but that is a bit of a shock! But the fact we know each other through the net!
Chris771
New member
No such thing as a free lunch
The 1600 Orion, Escort and Fiesta all had the same motor, just a few different brackets on the Fiesta due to less space. Make sure you get the starter and alternator. The diesel starter is different to the petrol engine one, which is not man enough for the higher comp of the diesel engine, the alternator of the diesel also has a tachometer take-off connector on it. (God, my head is full of useless garbage, wish I knew something useful, then maybe I could get rich!).
Write a book? By the time you have read my other epistle on the boatone post "Forbsie needs our help" you will probably think I have, and most others will have been bored to tears by my ramblings. Wish I knew when to stop.
Buy one of those Ford 1600's. Volkswagen engines are not bad to marinate, but bits more expensive due to lesser numbers of them around. Would not recommend a Vauxhall diesel, bit mechanically fragile and pigs to try and set the injector timing on, they work fine in cars though, before I offend anyone. They would also be difficult to get adapter plates for to fit the gearbox, you would probably end up having to make your own, which is a nice little project with a sheet of 1/4" aluminum plate. Soon sorts out who can and who cannot measure and lay out properly. If you go down that route, make a hardboard one first as a template, after the first three you will realise why. The more exotic you get, the more it will cost.
Chris
www.impact-computers.net/boat/cruiser.htm
The 1600 Orion, Escort and Fiesta all had the same motor, just a few different brackets on the Fiesta due to less space. Make sure you get the starter and alternator. The diesel starter is different to the petrol engine one, which is not man enough for the higher comp of the diesel engine, the alternator of the diesel also has a tachometer take-off connector on it. (God, my head is full of useless garbage, wish I knew something useful, then maybe I could get rich!).
Write a book? By the time you have read my other epistle on the boatone post "Forbsie needs our help" you will probably think I have, and most others will have been bored to tears by my ramblings. Wish I knew when to stop.
Buy one of those Ford 1600's. Volkswagen engines are not bad to marinate, but bits more expensive due to lesser numbers of them around. Would not recommend a Vauxhall diesel, bit mechanically fragile and pigs to try and set the injector timing on, they work fine in cars though, before I offend anyone. They would also be difficult to get adapter plates for to fit the gearbox, you would probably end up having to make your own, which is a nice little project with a sheet of 1/4" aluminum plate. Soon sorts out who can and who cannot measure and lay out properly. If you go down that route, make a hardboard one first as a template, after the first three you will realise why. The more exotic you get, the more it will cost.
Chris
www.impact-computers.net/boat/cruiser.htm