A
Anonymous
Guest
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France - is registration absolutely necessary?
- Thread starter Drascomber
- Start date
duncanmack
Well-Known Member
This has been a fascinating thread. It's got me sufficiently riled to reply! Not at you - you asked a perfectly reasonable question - but at some of the later contributions.
Your "chattel" is considered a "Navire de plaisance" in France.
There are lots of regulations which apply to French Navires de plaisance. I can't be bothered to list them and translate them. Suffice it to say that they range from registration, use, levels of equipment to overloading, qualifications of user etc etc with draconian penalties applied to infractions of the regulations - usually a fine but can be a term of imprisonment of a month+, with a doubling of the potential penalty for re-offenders.
The regulations are very specific and can be found in the back of any French almanach du marin or on the internet as someone has pointed out already.
The French are a very pragmatic and logical race. If you have a French navire de plaisance then all of the rules apply. If it's not French then basically most of then don't apply.
Right, the whole point of this rant is that with a French navire de plaisance you have to carry the ship's documentation or you are committing an offence. If you can prove that the vessel is not a French navire de plaisance then you don't have to carry them or comply with the other legislation that would apply if it were. OK?
How do you prove it? Simple.
Carry the papers which show that your boat is registered elsewhere. Which for GB is Part 1 registration docs (or part 3, which was set up as a much simpler method of proving GB registration).
Originals are required, just the same as original car driving licences, MOTs and insurance certificates are required to be produced here (or there for that matter) unless you have an official document (ie from the official department which would normally issue the original document) which states the reason why the original is not available.
Thread drift..... In France you are required to carry ID. If you are driving a vehicle you must carry the registration document, and the insurance certificate. You must also carry a valid driving license.
If you fail to produce any of these when asked then you have committed an offence. If it is a lack of ID (passport in our case) then they can chuck you in the "brigade" until someone comes looking for you - well, in the absence of ID they don't know who to contact, do they?
If the French Polis stop you and ask for your license you cannot drive until they give it back to you - which they won't if they think you've been drinking. Instant ban!
See? Very logical. I admire them! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAArgh. Rant over.
Edit
And why do I know this? Well, a few years ago I had an extended boozy dinner with a French retired master mariner, his pal, a senior fonctionaire from the Bureau des Affaires Maritime and my old man who is pally with the retired MM and was in HMCE for years. They were having a ball comparing our national systems and psyches. It was a hoot! Incidentally our family has French registered and British registered boats over there so it was informative for staying out of jail. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Your "chattel" is considered a "Navire de plaisance" in France.
There are lots of regulations which apply to French Navires de plaisance. I can't be bothered to list them and translate them. Suffice it to say that they range from registration, use, levels of equipment to overloading, qualifications of user etc etc with draconian penalties applied to infractions of the regulations - usually a fine but can be a term of imprisonment of a month+, with a doubling of the potential penalty for re-offenders.
The regulations are very specific and can be found in the back of any French almanach du marin or on the internet as someone has pointed out already.
The French are a very pragmatic and logical race. If you have a French navire de plaisance then all of the rules apply. If it's not French then basically most of then don't apply.
Right, the whole point of this rant is that with a French navire de plaisance you have to carry the ship's documentation or you are committing an offence. If you can prove that the vessel is not a French navire de plaisance then you don't have to carry them or comply with the other legislation that would apply if it were. OK?
How do you prove it? Simple.
Carry the papers which show that your boat is registered elsewhere. Which for GB is Part 1 registration docs (or part 3, which was set up as a much simpler method of proving GB registration).
Originals are required, just the same as original car driving licences, MOTs and insurance certificates are required to be produced here (or there for that matter) unless you have an official document (ie from the official department which would normally issue the original document) which states the reason why the original is not available.
Thread drift..... In France you are required to carry ID. If you are driving a vehicle you must carry the registration document, and the insurance certificate. You must also carry a valid driving license.
If you fail to produce any of these when asked then you have committed an offence. If it is a lack of ID (passport in our case) then they can chuck you in the "brigade" until someone comes looking for you - well, in the absence of ID they don't know who to contact, do they?
If the French Polis stop you and ask for your license you cannot drive until they give it back to you - which they won't if they think you've been drinking. Instant ban!
See? Very logical. I admire them! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAArgh. Rant over.
Edit
And why do I know this? Well, a few years ago I had an extended boozy dinner with a French retired master mariner, his pal, a senior fonctionaire from the Bureau des Affaires Maritime and my old man who is pally with the retired MM and was in HMCE for years. They were having a ball comparing our national systems and psyches. It was a hoot! Incidentally our family has French registered and British registered boats over there so it was informative for staying out of jail. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Marsupial
Well-Known Member
I have the case but as you say no paperwork, it happened a few years ago in Boulogne the (instant) fine for not having the registation docs on board was 200 euros and they threatened to impound the boat a Princess 38 until docs were produced.
duncanmack
Well-Known Member
Yup, I forgot to say one of the sanctions they can apply is impounding the vessel (or car) if the registration is not produced instanter.
LegalEagle
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
How do you prove it? Simple. Carry the papers which show that your boat is registered elsewhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for all of that text. I think most people accept almost every word of your post. The bit I've quoted is the one bit that remains unclear and it sounds like you can help. Can you refer to "the back of your French almanach du marin or on the internet" and actually quote the words of the legislation that require British boats to prove their status with an original registration document? Or the words that say such legislation exists. Maybe even with a link?
I think that would knock this one on the head once and for all.
How do you prove it? Simple. Carry the papers which show that your boat is registered elsewhere.
[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for all of that text. I think most people accept almost every word of your post. The bit I've quoted is the one bit that remains unclear and it sounds like you can help. Can you refer to "the back of your French almanach du marin or on the internet" and actually quote the words of the legislation that require British boats to prove their status with an original registration document? Or the words that say such legislation exists. Maybe even with a link?
I think that would knock this one on the head once and for all.
LegalEagle
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
I have the case but as you say no paperwork, it happened a few years ago in Boulogne the (instant) fine for not having the registation docs on board was 200 euros and they threatened to impound the boat a Princess 38 until docs were produced.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't have to be your boat. Just ring the guy up for a copy. I will honour my promise. £100 would be a bargain to sort this one out.
I have the case but as you say no paperwork, it happened a few years ago in Boulogne the (instant) fine for not having the registation docs on board was 200 euros and they threatened to impound the boat a Princess 38 until docs were produced.
[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't have to be your boat. Just ring the guy up for a copy. I will honour my promise. £100 would be a bargain to sort this one out.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
This is posted for the benefit of the people who have been patiently wading their way through this thread.
Suggest you go to this reference - not sure whether it will work directly as I am not good at posting links, but here goes
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written/answers/1980/dec/01/vessel-registration
This is the parliamentary report of the commitment to honour the promise to the French that the UK government would provide a means of registering yachts - what became the SSR. So you can blame it all on the French after all!
Suggest you go to this reference - not sure whether it will work directly as I am not good at posting links, but here goes
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written/answers/1980/dec/01/vessel-registration
This is the parliamentary report of the commitment to honour the promise to the French that the UK government would provide a means of registering yachts - what became the SSR. So you can blame it all on the French after all!
Koeketiene
Well-Known Member
Page not found /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
LegalEagle
New Member
Thanks, that could be useful.
Although Duncan says The regulations are very specific and can be found in the back of any French almanach du marin or on the internet so he should be back with a cast iron source any minute now.
Maybe you need to tidy up the link a bit, though.
Page not foundOh dear. We made a mistake.
You're seeing this page because we've moved something, or deleted something, without telling you where it might have gone.
It's also possible that the spelling of the URL you've used is incorrect.
Although Duncan says The regulations are very specific and can be found in the back of any French almanach du marin or on the internet so he should be back with a cast iron source any minute now.
Maybe you need to tidy up the link a bit, though.
Page not foundOh dear. We made a mistake.
You're seeing this page because we've moved something, or deleted something, without telling you where it might have gone.
It's also possible that the spelling of the URL you've used is incorrect.
Superflid
Well-Known Member
From the link Lemain gave earlier, translated by Babelfish....
"A pleasure boat under foreign flag must have on board the documents which prove its nationality (register, registration), in accordance with the regulation of its country".
"A pleasure boat under foreign flag must have on board the documents which prove its nationality (register, registration), in accordance with the regulation of its country".
LegalEagle
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
From the link Lemain gave earlier, translated by Babelfish....
"A pleasure boat under foreign flag must have on board the documents which prove its nationality (register, registration), in accordance with the regulation of its country".
[/ QUOTE ]
Many, many thanks. The Merchant Shipping Act does not require a vessel to be registered in order to be British Flagged - IIRC it merely has to have British Resident owners. So to be registered "in accordance with the regulations of Britain" I *think* you don't need to be formally registered merely so prove that the vessel meets the requirments of the MSA. Or is that wrong?
The RYA Web site actually say this:
http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/boatingabroad/Pages/boatingabroadpaperwork.aspx
”Registration of non-commercial pleasure craft [snip] is compulsory if you wish to take your boat abroad. This applies both to boats which are sailed or driven to a foreign port and to dinghies, ribs, sports boats and PWC etc. which are trailered to other countries.”
From the link Lemain gave earlier, translated by Babelfish....
"A pleasure boat under foreign flag must have on board the documents which prove its nationality (register, registration), in accordance with the regulation of its country".
[/ QUOTE ]
Many, many thanks. The Merchant Shipping Act does not require a vessel to be registered in order to be British Flagged - IIRC it merely has to have British Resident owners. So to be registered "in accordance with the regulations of Britain" I *think* you don't need to be formally registered merely so prove that the vessel meets the requirments of the MSA. Or is that wrong?
The RYA Web site actually say this:
http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/boatingabroad/Pages/boatingabroadpaperwork.aspx
”Registration of non-commercial pleasure craft [snip] is compulsory if you wish to take your boat abroad. This applies both to boats which are sailed or driven to a foreign port and to dinghies, ribs, sports boats and PWC etc. which are trailered to other countries.”
A
Anonymous
Guest
Amazingly Hansard have got straight back to me about that broken link and given me a new one......
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1980/dec/01/vessel-registration
I AM impressed.
http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/written_answers/1980/dec/01/vessel-registration
I AM impressed.
LegalEagle
New Member
4. As from 1 January 1984 the French authorities will accept as proper documentation for British pleasure craft only certificates of registration or other documents in conformity with the Convention on the High Seas 1958."
It actually says "or other documents"!!! Far from showing a registration document is legally required it specifically says alternatives will be accepted. The obvious alternative would seem to be proof that the vessel is British flagged according to the conditions of the Merchant Shipping Act. (Which, on reflection is all that the SSR proves.)
It actually says "or other documents"!!! Far from showing a registration document is legally required it specifically says alternatives will be accepted. The obvious alternative would seem to be proof that the vessel is British flagged according to the conditions of the Merchant Shipping Act. (Which, on reflection is all that the SSR proves.)
duncanmack
Well-Known Member
Quote
"Many, many thanks. The Merchant Shipping Act does not require a vessel to be registered in order to be British Flagged - IIRC it merely has to have British Resident owners. So to be registered "in accordance with the regulations of Britain" I *think* you don't need to be formally registered merely so prove that the vessel meets the requirments of the MSA. Or is that wrong? "
OK. So why do you think they flagged-out so many "British" ships? Bacause ANY country finding a vessel in its waters will assume that vessel belongs to that country unless it can be proved that the vessel belongs (ie is registered) to another country. Then it has to comply with the rules of the other country.
BTW In true French fashion the French almanac is not interested in foreign vessels. It is up to that vessel to prove it is not French.
"Many, many thanks. The Merchant Shipping Act does not require a vessel to be registered in order to be British Flagged - IIRC it merely has to have British Resident owners. So to be registered "in accordance with the regulations of Britain" I *think* you don't need to be formally registered merely so prove that the vessel meets the requirments of the MSA. Or is that wrong? "
OK. So why do you think they flagged-out so many "British" ships? Bacause ANY country finding a vessel in its waters will assume that vessel belongs to that country unless it can be proved that the vessel belongs (ie is registered) to another country. Then it has to comply with the rules of the other country.
BTW In true French fashion the French almanac is not interested in foreign vessels. It is up to that vessel to prove it is not French.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Finally we are moving towards what we knew already and you have consistently refused to accept. The statement was made in 1984 when the only form of registration was what we now refer to as Part 1. Very few yachts were on that register because it was designed for commercial ships and cumbersome to operate. The SSR (I believe originally proposed by the RYA) was introduced as the "alternative". It has served British yachtsmen very well. There is nothing magic, hidden or complex about it. Pay your £25 every 5 years, keep the bit of plastic with you at all times and you are unlikely to encounter any problems with proving your yacht is under the British Flag anywhere in the world.
Once you accept this very simple fact there is no need to have endless threads on these fora arguing whether it is or isn't!
Once you accept this very simple fact there is no need to have endless threads on these fora arguing whether it is or isn't!