sailorman
Well-Known Member
A Legal Eagle with no BIO /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
France - is registration absolutely necessary?
- Thread starter Drascomber
- Start date
Tranona
Well-Known Member
I think you will find that is because his name is either Terry or Toad. Every time this subject comes up he throws this misinformation in under a new name.
Just ignore!
Just ignore!
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Would you think the subject hes been fully covered now or is there something thats slipped through the net /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
Heckler
Well-Known Member
Back in 82-3 I took a Fletcher speedboat to the south of France, it was just about the time that all this bshit about boats registration was brought in as I recall. There were dire stories about the froggies confiscating things if they werent registered. I remember that there was a bit of paper that you could get off our reveners, a form that you could fill in if you were taking expensive goods abroad so that the reveners would not try to charge you when you came back. Our reveners were puzzled as to why I wanted it but it was duly stamped. This ruse was actually talked about in PBO at the time
As we got off the ferry, we were stopped by the froggy reveners. "Papiers pour le bateau s'il vous plait" I handed over the meaningless piece of paper, he looked at it, sucked his teeth and waved us on!
That is the only time I have ever been pulled.
Stu
As we got off the ferry, we were stopped by the froggy reveners. "Papiers pour le bateau s'il vous plait" I handed over the meaningless piece of paper, he looked at it, sucked his teeth and waved us on!
That is the only time I have ever been pulled.
Stu
Robin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
When you were checked off Poole why didn't you tell them to come and do it when you had docked?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are under some misapprehension that you have a choice!
We were under sail, making between 7 and 8kts. The Customs cutter is about half a mile west of us as we head north for Poole, it moves in an arc behind us and then follows matching our speed but say 400yds astern. Next a big and very noisy diesel inboard black RIB appears with 6 very large customs officers in all black dry suits and heavy black boots and within seconds it is along side and 4 of them have 'invited' themselves on board and jump across. I felt it would have been churlish to refuse. The RIB moved away and kept pace also.
They were on board maybe 30 minutes and looked at our registration papers and passports whilst asking us questions in an apparently casual manner but that could clearly have been answered from our documents that they were sat reading, like how long had we owned the boat, where was our home port, what size engine did we have and so on. At no time did they want to go below, nor did they accept an offer of coffee. They were all very polite and actually very friendly - just doing their job. They gave us a souvenir postcard of 'Seeker' and 'Searcher' the two cutters which explains that they have variable pitch props so they can follow even at slow speeds, like just out of visual range say. The RIB is launched and recovered from a slipway James Bond style in the stern and with the cutter behind you don't even see it coming until it is there.
I watched a TV programme recently that showed the same happening to a yacht and the guy suggested they might wait until he was in harbour, they found this suspicious and didn't comply with the request either.
I think the phrase 'go ahead make my day' applies.
The French Customs that did the same off Cherbourg were similar except they went past, stopped at about half a mile ahead (actually the limit of the visibility that day) and launched a RIB with a crane. They had passed us in Cherbourg East Entrance as we left harbour (even waved to us) and had also passed us again an hour later before reappearing and stopping us. They did go below and did a very cursory search often asking what was in this locker or similar. They also looked at our logbook which was on the chart table and asked what an entry 'crash bang wallop and we do this for fun?' meant (SWMBO was navigating on the outbound trip..). They radioed the big boat with our passport numbers and these were checked via a radio or telephone call from there to 'Paris' they told us. Once again very polite, very friendly and very insistent. In this case I think some of them were in training. Again they were just doing their jobs.
Like I said though [--word removed--] with these people and it will likely cost you.
When you were checked off Poole why didn't you tell them to come and do it when you had docked?
[/ QUOTE ]
I think you are under some misapprehension that you have a choice!
We were under sail, making between 7 and 8kts. The Customs cutter is about half a mile west of us as we head north for Poole, it moves in an arc behind us and then follows matching our speed but say 400yds astern. Next a big and very noisy diesel inboard black RIB appears with 6 very large customs officers in all black dry suits and heavy black boots and within seconds it is along side and 4 of them have 'invited' themselves on board and jump across. I felt it would have been churlish to refuse. The RIB moved away and kept pace also.
They were on board maybe 30 minutes and looked at our registration papers and passports whilst asking us questions in an apparently casual manner but that could clearly have been answered from our documents that they were sat reading, like how long had we owned the boat, where was our home port, what size engine did we have and so on. At no time did they want to go below, nor did they accept an offer of coffee. They were all very polite and actually very friendly - just doing their job. They gave us a souvenir postcard of 'Seeker' and 'Searcher' the two cutters which explains that they have variable pitch props so they can follow even at slow speeds, like just out of visual range say. The RIB is launched and recovered from a slipway James Bond style in the stern and with the cutter behind you don't even see it coming until it is there.
I watched a TV programme recently that showed the same happening to a yacht and the guy suggested they might wait until he was in harbour, they found this suspicious and didn't comply with the request either.
I think the phrase 'go ahead make my day' applies.
The French Customs that did the same off Cherbourg were similar except they went past, stopped at about half a mile ahead (actually the limit of the visibility that day) and launched a RIB with a crane. They had passed us in Cherbourg East Entrance as we left harbour (even waved to us) and had also passed us again an hour later before reappearing and stopping us. They did go below and did a very cursory search often asking what was in this locker or similar. They also looked at our logbook which was on the chart table and asked what an entry 'crash bang wallop and we do this for fun?' meant (SWMBO was navigating on the outbound trip..). They radioed the big boat with our passport numbers and these were checked via a radio or telephone call from there to 'Paris' they told us. Once again very polite, very friendly and very insistent. In this case I think some of them were in training. Again they were just doing their jobs.
Like I said though [--word removed--] with these people and it will likely cost you.
Heckler
Well-Known Member
Robin
you are missing the point, Madoc is arguing the point that there is no British law that states your boat must be registered to go foreign. You are arguing the point that you are crazy if you dont register to go foreign. Different things!!
Stop digging!!
Stu
you are missing the point, Madoc is arguing the point that there is no British law that states your boat must be registered to go foreign. You are arguing the point that you are crazy if you dont register to go foreign. Different things!!
Stop digging!!
Stu
LegalEagle
New Member
Sorry, if I got my facts wrong. Too late to edit the post but I'm happy to make a further post making any corrections you or anyone else deems appropriate, obviously after I‘ve verified them.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
Please Please Dont bother /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Yes, The RYA article covers everything that is important with the exception of the French law on presentation of registration documents, which applies to French boats as well because registration is compulsory in France. I forgot to keep a record of the Codes that covered the issues and defined the penalties when another more industious poster than myself found them. My excuse is that there are enough reported cases, including one in this thread of it actually happening -and it would not apply to me because I always have my registration papers with me when I go to France!
If only people would heed the advice and talk to the RYA they would be as well informed on the subject as anybody - complete with an understanding of the underlying law and conventions, plus the "grey" areas!
And so to bed!
If only people would heed the advice and talk to the RYA they would be as well informed on the subject as anybody - complete with an understanding of the underlying law and conventions, plus the "grey" areas!
And so to bed!
Robin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Robin
you are missing the point, Madoc is arguing the point that there is no British law that states your boat must be registered to go foreign. You are arguing the point that you are crazy if you don't register to go foreign. Different things!!
Stop digging!!
Stu
[/ QUOTE ]
My previous reply was not to Madoc! It was to answer another post that said why not tell Customs to wait until you arrive in harbour to be boarded.
As far as Madoc is concerned he has one belief and I have another about the legal aspects, which is fine because I don't care!
What I DO care about is that this question of registration documents and so on comes up very regularly from people new to cruising and needing answers that will not get them into trouble. There is quite frankly so much old bollocks posted about what you can and can't do which only serves to confuse and this is a case in point. It doesn't MATTER what or whose 'law' it is, if you go to France without the registration papers and you are stopped you WILL be fined, it will NOT be cheap nor will it be pleasant, that may or may not be lawful but it is FACT. If you have the right documents and are polite if asked then the experience will be no more than a minor interruption and maybe even a minor talking point of the cruise.
Over and bloody out. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Robin
you are missing the point, Madoc is arguing the point that there is no British law that states your boat must be registered to go foreign. You are arguing the point that you are crazy if you don't register to go foreign. Different things!!
Stop digging!!
Stu
[/ QUOTE ]
My previous reply was not to Madoc! It was to answer another post that said why not tell Customs to wait until you arrive in harbour to be boarded.
As far as Madoc is concerned he has one belief and I have another about the legal aspects, which is fine because I don't care!
What I DO care about is that this question of registration documents and so on comes up very regularly from people new to cruising and needing answers that will not get them into trouble. There is quite frankly so much old bollocks posted about what you can and can't do which only serves to confuse and this is a case in point. It doesn't MATTER what or whose 'law' it is, if you go to France without the registration papers and you are stopped you WILL be fined, it will NOT be cheap nor will it be pleasant, that may or may not be lawful but it is FACT. If you have the right documents and are polite if asked then the experience will be no more than a minor interruption and maybe even a minor talking point of the cruise.
Over and bloody out. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
BrianH
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
there are enough reported cases, including one in this thread of it actually happening -and it would not apply to me because I always have my registration papers with me
If only people would heed the advice and talk to the RYA they would be as well informed on the subject as anybody - complete with an understanding of the underlying law and conventions, plus the "grey" areas!
[/ QUOTE ]
Wise words, there are always "grey" areas where individual interpretation can be invoked. Anyway, it really doesn't matter what the letter of the law is – it only needs one bloody-minded official who THINKS something is needed to make a lot of grief. Such jumped-up bureaucrats have enough local power invested in them that one's day can be seriously spoiled. Carry as many relevant documents that can be obtained.
Way back in the days of the Yugoslavian federation when the state imposed its power by means of a rather nasty police and military presence, I once anchored in an idyllic bay on the island of Mljet after having closely perused the book of prohibited areas supplied when declaring in to the country, to check that we were not anywhere illegal – our position was not in it.
At midnight a bump against the boat woke me up and the clatter of boots on the deck brought me out of my bunk. A Yugoslavian army officer with drawn pistol was already descending into the cabin while the cockpit had a couple of soldiers carrying rifles - more were in the boat alongside.
The officer spoke English and after a short interrogation told me we had to move; we were in a prohibited military area. Like an idiot, I protested that the official list did not contain this particular location and tried to show him the book. Wrong move, his whole demeanour became aggressive and threatening and he ordered me to immediately get moving – NOW.
I went. Moral of the story, don't argue with foreign officials, even when in the right.
there are enough reported cases, including one in this thread of it actually happening -and it would not apply to me because I always have my registration papers with me
If only people would heed the advice and talk to the RYA they would be as well informed on the subject as anybody - complete with an understanding of the underlying law and conventions, plus the "grey" areas!
[/ QUOTE ]
Wise words, there are always "grey" areas where individual interpretation can be invoked. Anyway, it really doesn't matter what the letter of the law is – it only needs one bloody-minded official who THINKS something is needed to make a lot of grief. Such jumped-up bureaucrats have enough local power invested in them that one's day can be seriously spoiled. Carry as many relevant documents that can be obtained.
Way back in the days of the Yugoslavian federation when the state imposed its power by means of a rather nasty police and military presence, I once anchored in an idyllic bay on the island of Mljet after having closely perused the book of prohibited areas supplied when declaring in to the country, to check that we were not anywhere illegal – our position was not in it.
At midnight a bump against the boat woke me up and the clatter of boots on the deck brought me out of my bunk. A Yugoslavian army officer with drawn pistol was already descending into the cabin while the cockpit had a couple of soldiers carrying rifles - more were in the boat alongside.
The officer spoke English and after a short interrogation told me we had to move; we were in a prohibited military area. Like an idiot, I protested that the official list did not contain this particular location and tried to show him the book. Wrong move, his whole demeanour became aggressive and threatening and he ordered me to immediately get moving – NOW.
I went. Moral of the story, don't argue with foreign officials, even when in the right.
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
I can certainly agree with you there!
maxi77
Well-Known Member
If you ever have the temerity to suggest you may be able to prove that some minor official is wrong, he/she/it will literally move heaven and earth to ensure you cannot do so.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
The Judge of a Man is Wot he Doeth With Power /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
jimbaerselman
Well-Known Member
To clarify the situation: from Cruising Association Sources.
UK cannot legislate what an unregistered boat can or cannot do outside its territories, so it's not 'the law' that small leisure vessels must be registered outside UK waters. UK does require registration of vessels over 200GRT, fishing and other commercial vessels, but not leisure vessels under 200GRT.
The RYA correctly advises that if you're going foreign, registration is compulsory. The reason is that in most other countries, un-registered vessels have no rights. Anyone can buy a flag.
Yes, if you are on 'innocent passage' (a very narrow definition) you won't be asked for papers, although you may well be stopped by customs. But if you go ashore, the country you are visiting is entitled to assume this is not innocent passage, and ask for proof of registration. Most countries do so from time to time.
So, to answer the OP, yes, registration is absolutely necessary, unless you're happy occasionally to pay some quite substantial fines.
UK cannot legislate what an unregistered boat can or cannot do outside its territories, so it's not 'the law' that small leisure vessels must be registered outside UK waters. UK does require registration of vessels over 200GRT, fishing and other commercial vessels, but not leisure vessels under 200GRT.
The RYA correctly advises that if you're going foreign, registration is compulsory. The reason is that in most other countries, un-registered vessels have no rights. Anyone can buy a flag.
Yes, if you are on 'innocent passage' (a very narrow definition) you won't be asked for papers, although you may well be stopped by customs. But if you go ashore, the country you are visiting is entitled to assume this is not innocent passage, and ask for proof of registration. Most countries do so from time to time.
So, to answer the OP, yes, registration is absolutely necessary, unless you're happy occasionally to pay some quite substantial fines.
Heckler
Well-Known Member
Hey, take a chill pill, lifes too short to get all worked up over whether you are right or wrong /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Stu
Stu
Robin
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Hey, take a chill pill, lifes too short to get all worked up over whether you are right or wrong
Stu
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey Stu YOU take a chill pill.
I don't give a [--word removed--] if I'm right OR wrong about a UK law or not but I do give a [--word removed--] if some dopes are spouting useless bollocks that could cause someone to have their cruise spoiled for lack of information.
Unlike some in druid territory, I live and sail close enough that we are frequent visitors to France and have on many occasions needed tp present our documents. That IS relevant and I trust helpful. Nitpicking bollocks is not.
Y'all have a nice day.
Hey, take a chill pill, lifes too short to get all worked up over whether you are right or wrong
Stu
[/ QUOTE ]
Hey Stu YOU take a chill pill.
I don't give a [--word removed--] if I'm right OR wrong about a UK law or not but I do give a [--word removed--] if some dopes are spouting useless bollocks that could cause someone to have their cruise spoiled for lack of information.
Unlike some in druid territory, I live and sail close enough that we are frequent visitors to France and have on many occasions needed tp present our documents. That IS relevant and I trust helpful. Nitpicking bollocks is not.
Y'all have a nice day.
LegalEagle
New Member
I think maybe you should give a **** about the law.
I'm guessing that right now you are assuming that French law requires your keel boat to be on the SSR but your tender not to be. The RYA clearly state that all vessels including PWCs and dinghies must be registered abroad. (See below.) Without seeing the law how can you be so sure the RYA are wrong? Maybe seeing the law or reading a few links to newspaper reports of prosecutions would save you a load of trouble in future?
I know plenty of people who don't carry their original SSR documents on their boat, indeed I know of one south coast charter firm which doesn't provide original SSR documents. What about the countless unregistered dinghies, trailer sailors and open boats that go to France each year. Imagine how much hassle it would save them to know for a fact what French law states.
My personal guess is that the lack of credible evidence of prosecutions or any direct reference to French law is strong evidence that the legal requirement for British flagged leisure boats to be on the SSR abroad is an urban myth. It's impossible to prove that guess to be correct. It would be very easy and very useful to prove it wrong.
So knowing the law on this is important, and IMHO you should start to care about it.
http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/boatingabroad/Pages/boatingabroadpaperwork.aspx
”Registration of non-commercial pleasure craft [snip] is compulsory if you wish to take your boat abroad. This applies both to boats which are sailed or driven to a foreign port and to dinghies, ribs, sports boats and PWC etc. which are trailered to other countries.”
I'm guessing that right now you are assuming that French law requires your keel boat to be on the SSR but your tender not to be. The RYA clearly state that all vessels including PWCs and dinghies must be registered abroad. (See below.) Without seeing the law how can you be so sure the RYA are wrong? Maybe seeing the law or reading a few links to newspaper reports of prosecutions would save you a load of trouble in future?
I know plenty of people who don't carry their original SSR documents on their boat, indeed I know of one south coast charter firm which doesn't provide original SSR documents. What about the countless unregistered dinghies, trailer sailors and open boats that go to France each year. Imagine how much hassle it would save them to know for a fact what French law states.
My personal guess is that the lack of credible evidence of prosecutions or any direct reference to French law is strong evidence that the legal requirement for British flagged leisure boats to be on the SSR abroad is an urban myth. It's impossible to prove that guess to be correct. It would be very easy and very useful to prove it wrong.
So knowing the law on this is important, and IMHO you should start to care about it.
http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/boatingabroad/Pages/boatingabroadpaperwork.aspx
”Registration of non-commercial pleasure craft [snip] is compulsory if you wish to take your boat abroad. This applies both to boats which are sailed or driven to a foreign port and to dinghies, ribs, sports boats and PWC etc. which are trailered to other countries.”
A
Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
I think maybe you should give a **** about the law..........
So knowing the law on this is important, and IMHO you should start to care about it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm with you 100% on this. We need to to know:-
What does the law say?
What do local regulations say?
How are the law and regulations interpreted and enforced?
Only then can we decide how to behave.
I get more than somewhat irritated by people who make the sort of comment.......
"I've been driving at 100 mph from London to Glasgow drinking Scotch all the way for the last twenty years and have NEVER been stopped. Ignore those who tell you otherwise". --- I know several people who fit into that broad category /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I think maybe you should give a **** about the law..........
So knowing the law on this is important, and IMHO you should start to care about it.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm with you 100% on this. We need to to know:-
What does the law say?
What do local regulations say?
How are the law and regulations interpreted and enforced?
Only then can we decide how to behave.
I get more than somewhat irritated by people who make the sort of comment.......
"I've been driving at 100 mph from London to Glasgow drinking Scotch all the way for the last twenty years and have NEVER been stopped. Ignore those who tell you otherwise". --- I know several people who fit into that broad category /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Heckler
Well-Known Member
BP 98 over 196 at a guess? whats rattled your cage? Seriously, look to your health.
Stu
Stu