France - is registration absolutely necessary?

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I'm with you 100% on this. We need to to know:-

What does the law say?
What do local regulations say?
How are the law and regulations interpreted and enforced?

Only then can we decide how to behave.

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Sorry, but you don't agree with me to any great extent. You're saying people need detailed knowlege of the law to know how to behave. I think most Europeans can behave fine throughout Europe without knowing the specific local behaviour laws.

But to know something detailed and technical like why we don't need an original SSR doc for a tender but we do for a 22foot Drascombe people need to refer directly to the legislation or at least an authoritative source.

Maybe when you say 'behave' you're referring to countires outside Europe where it's harder for Europeans to rely on common sense to behave correctly. In which case I'd have some sympathy with your view.
 
So, the SSR is a useless piece of paper? Only if you have no need for it. However, if you do it is priceless.

Would you rather pay what our European colleagues have to pay for the COMPULSORY registration of their boats.
 
<<< like why we don't need an original SSR doc for a tender but we do for a 22foot Drascombe >>>

Without in any way pretending that I know more than I read in the magazines about the legalese of this thread, the above has been covered in a recent article in at least one of them. Cannot be certain which ones as I read quite a few. The article only discussed France.

If you use a tender, either with or without an engine, simply as a means of transport between the boat and the land the dinghy is not required by the French to have a separate SSR. If you use it for water skiing, long trips away from the boat or other such purposes you may be asked by the authorities to show a certificate of registration.
 
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<<< like why we don't need an original SSR doc for a tender but we do for a 22foot Drascombe >>>

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Without in any way pretending that I know more than I read in the magazines about the legalese of this thread, the above has been covered in a recent article in at least one of them. Cannot be certain which ones

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Shame you didn't keep it. Still, I'm sure if it's a national magazine someone on YBW will be able to quote the text for the common good.
 
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So be patient, your time will come.... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Having met you I cannot see how that Customs can consider such an upstanding character such as yourself to be dodgy but the amount of times you have been stoped both by French & UK customs is a concern.

I repeat in 11 yrs and say 100 trips including one 3 months cruising down to spain along the French coast I have never been stopped - so you are probably right - my time will come.

I do though always carry the following.

Original Part 1 registration

Passports

ICC/Yachtmaster Cert

DSC/VHF license

Original Invoice for boat showing VAT paid.

Hopefully I will never need to show them but why take a chance of a fine.
 
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Having met you I cannot see how that Customs can consider such an upstanding character such as yourself to be dodgy but the amount of times you have been stopped both by French & UK customs is a concern.

I repeat in 11 yrs and say 100 trips including one 3 months cruising down to Spain along the French coast I have never been stopped - so you are probably right - my time will come.


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Well having met you I don't understand how you get away with it! /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Maybe an explanation is that we are Part 1 registered and were with all our boats. With Part 3 (SSR) registry you have the SSR numbers stuck in full view on the outside of the boat, I believe that is what is required. With Part 1 and the old Blue Book the registered number is not visible on the outside as it is required to be on a carving board on the main bulkhead. We have certainly seen French Customs in Cherbourg walking along the visitor pontoons and selecting those boats without SSR numbers to stop and question, presumably in case they 'catch' an unregistered one but most of those will like us be on Part 1.

Also we have been at it a very long time and my incidents go back now over more than 25 years and some 40,000 mls of exposure. My wife too being American was originally, before we were married, required to clear UK immigration both outbound and inbound and HM Customs handled that. In those days she had to have her passport stamped at Poole Quay or the ferry port before we left and again on our return, except that we were such frequent visitors they got to know us and often boarded us on the way down the Swash and signed us off as we came back. You also might remember that prior to the EU free movement and when duty free was available we all had to clear customs on return to the UK every trip even if just by phoning in and waiting on board 2hrs before heading off home.

As far as the French Customs are concerned, we spend a lot of time at anchor and often in out of the way corners too when in Southern Brittany. The Biscay coast of France is a frequent first landing point for boats arriving from outside the EU and of course for boats smuggling. It is very common to see the big Customs boats sitting at anchor behind the islands offshore along this coast like Glenans, Houat and Belle Isle and I don't think like us that they are just soaking up the rays! They also send out their RIB on patrol around all the anchorages. Our boat looks like a long distance cruiser too, with a stern gantry, solar array and big wind generator, maybe that too is a factor in us being picked more often?

As you said if you carry the documents you will not be troubled if they do stop you. We certainly aren't at all bothered by it as we have nothing to hide and it can even be an interesting diversion.
 
Nobody has come up with a single well documented case of a British boat crew in France or anywhere else being prosecuted for failing to be registered. (Either for a specific offence of not being registered or by being deemed a local boat due not being considered on innocent passage.)

Nobody has demonstrated a specific offence in France or anywhere else of failing to produce an original Registration document.

There does seem to be written evidence that comity is extended to foreign boats on innocent passage but no evidence whatsoever that any boat (Dinghy or Yacht) must 'prove' it is British with a specific document in order to be considered a British boat. Indeed according the Merchant Shipping Act in the Uk a Boat does not need to be registered in order to be British - nobody has come up with the French equivalent of the MSA to show it is otherwise in France.

This has all the hallmarks of an urban myth. Nobody has first hand experience of being fined, people claim to 'know someone' or 'saw someone'. There seems no consistent view on who enforces these laws. There's no consistent view on how much the fine is. Most peddlers of this myth agree there's a fixed penalty system in place yet nobody can point at the specific details on the web or anyhwhere else.

It's an Urban myth.

If anyone posts a scanned in copy of a receipt for payment (or any other credible document relating to the specific offence you committed) of a fixed penalty for an offence they’ve committed in France that came about as a result of failing to have an original registration document on a UK flagged (as defined by the MSA) leisure boat I'll send them £100 quid. (Just the first one, if 30 people come forward I'm not sending £3000 quid out!)

So just to spell it out. If you got a fixed penalty for failure to produce an original SSR document scan and post it. If due to lack of an original SSR document you were deemed a local ship given a fixed penalty for not having appropriate safety gear (or whatever) post it and I'll send you a ton for you to take the missus out, donate to the RNLI, whatever.

It’s a sincere offer. I can’t lose. In the highly unlikely event that I have to shell out £100 at least I’ll know the truth which will make it a bargain.
 
Will you accept proof for Belgium instead of France? If yes, check your bank statement.
 
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Will you accept proof for Belgium instead of France? If yes, check your bank statement.

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Belgium will do. Get scanning and tell the missus to put her best frock on!

Why didn't you mention it before?
 
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Belgium will do. Get scanning and tell the missus to put her best frock on!

Why didn't you mention it before?

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http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/fr/aqua/plaisure/plaisure.htm

I've only just found it. It's all in frog, let me know if you can't understand it.

There is also a French Govt. website specifically for public access to laws, regulations and codes. http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr Again, not surprisingly, it is in frog; the little Union Flag is pretty but not functional. I think we'd find the regs/laws/codes on legifrance if we searched.

I was rather eager to relieve you of that £100. I suggest that we send it to the organisers of the Mercury meet, towards sundry expenses? I think that Pauline (paulineb) or Colin (Englander) will be able to take your cheque in GBP or EUR.
 
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Belgium will do. Get scanning and tell the missus to put her best frock on!

Why didn't you mention it before?

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http://www.mobilit.fgov.be/fr/aqua/plaisure/plaisure.htm

I've only just found it. It's all in frog, let me know if you can't understand it.

There is also a French Govt. website specifically for public access to laws, regulations and codes. http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr Again, not surprisingly, it is in frog; the little Union Flag is pretty but not functional. I think we'd find the regs/laws/codes on legifrance if we searched.

I was rather eager to relieve you of that £100. I suggest that we send it to the organisers of the Mercury meet, towards sundry expenses? I think that Pauline (paulineb) or Colin (Englander) will be able to take your cheque in GBP or EUR.

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What do you think I was offering the £100 for? And what do you think you've posted?
 
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So you don't have a "copy of a receipt for payment (or any other credible document relating to the specific offence you committed) ".

I didn't think you did.

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Ahhhh....so the law, clearly stated on Government websites isn't enough to convince you that you are wrong? Where is the logic in that? After all, someone could show you a receipt for a fine that they actually paid, all official-like, where the officials had over-stepped their authority. The Government websites are a more valid proof of the existence of the law than any receipt. Furthermore, we have first hand accounts from regular posters -- people actually known to long-standing forumnites, trustworthy people -- who have been boarded and who have friends who have been fined.

I am sure that there is no doubt that in French, Spanish and Italian waters (and no doubt many others) you are required to have evidence of registration of your vessel.

When you come to accept that, maybe you could post that cheque to Pauline or Colin /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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When you come to accept that, maybe you could post that cheque to Pauline or Colin /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Lemain, I didn't offer £100 for "proving that I was wrong".

Are you trying to steal £100 or have you made a genuine mistake?

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Ahhhh....so the law, clearly stated on Government websites isn't enough to convince you that you are wrong?

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The law, clearly stated on Government websites would be dandy and a prefect cast iron resolution to this whole issue. I was just so shocked at what appears to be a clumsy attempt to fraudulantly pressure me into handing over £100 that I forgot to ask about it. I don't speak French well enough to read all the documents you posted, can you point at the specific phrases you refer to and I'll babel fish them.
 
Yes, I am trying to steal £100. So sorry you are shocked. You might get another shock if you try to prove your legal theories when sailing foreign -- especially if you don't have a basic grasp of European languages as you will believe that the officials are trying to "steal" from you. Just don't tell them that.....they probably won't have a sense of humour or laugh at your accusation.

You don't show any bio details, or give any information about yourself, yet profess to be some kind of legal specialist.
 
Lemain, I'm bewildered.

Firstly, are you still claiming the £100 'reward'?

Secondly, which bit of the documents you posted were you referring to as stating the law?
 
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Lemain, I'm bewildered.

[/ QUOTE ]Spend the money on a language course if you are ever going to go foreign....you will need it.
 
As a former Ships Officer and later Cargo Superintendent ... amongst other guises ... basically having to deal with many different authorities in many countries. I can only back up Lemains stand on the folly of trying to convince other countreies officials of right and wrong.
Having spent a night in a Nigerian jail in Port Harcourt - I can say with certainty that it's an act you do once and once only. Only by the powers of Shell - BP Nigerian Development Co. did I get released. OK - that's an extreme case and was based on a non-uniformed Nigerian demanding access to ships papers, I asked the guy to wait while I checked with authorities - Next I knew I was being manhandled down gangway ...

My opinion is that as a visitor to any country - I cannot insist or argue with procedures that they follow. You try to make all as easy and plain sailing as possible. Often you feel that you've been had - but better that than arguing through the bars of a cell or bank Automat !!
 
David, ignore him. He is a wind up merchant previously known as Terry_Wilson 1234 and then Toad of Toad Hall. He tries this game every time this subject comes up. Last time another poster provided him the links to the specific French codes. Previously I have provided him with endless references which he simply refuses to accept. Hopefully he will go away if you ignore him.
 
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