France - is registration absolutely necessary?

I think you and others have missed my point.

Matelot and sailor211 earlier said that it was a UK law that yachts leaving UK waters had to be registered. I do not think this is the case and will need a reference before I believe it to be correct.

The french customs have regularly stopped UK yachts, mine included and asked to see boats papers. Occassionally French port authorities also ask to see them. The SSR was started to satisify the french authorities not the UK. There is no UK statutory requirement for UK yachts to be registered.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Vyy,
My experience over the past 2 summers in Normandy and Brittany is the exact opposite of yours. We have never been asked by a marina for boat papers. We do not offer them as a matter of routine. We were boarded by Douane at Camaret who did ask for boat papers.

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Exactly our experience over the last 11 yrs - never been asked but seen the Douane doing their work at Carteret but they did not bother us. Probably visited about 100 french Ports in that time -one trip took 3 months!

Perhaps its only French Ports that start with a "C" that have the problem!!
 
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This is advice; it is not the law. UK cannot prescribe behaviour outside its territory


[/ QUOTE ]

The law ays that a UK owned vessel needs to be registered unless it is operating in UK waters. The French simply used that for their own purposes that since every UK vessel in French waters must by UK law be registered they must therefore be able tp prove that by showing documents when required. The law is from the UK, for UK people. The French as is their way will ask what they want in their own country, fine offenders first and invite them to claim it back afterwards. Good luck!
 
We had our papers checked by French Customs in:-

Cherbourg (several times over the years in several different boats)
Offshore 14mls out from nearest land Cherbourg (once)
St Malo
Camaret at anchor
Camaret marina
Concarneau (twice)
Concarneau at anchor (once)
Isles De Glenan at anchor (once in last boat, twice in current one)
Belle Isle Port Yorc'h at anchor (three times)
Port Haliguen (once, by local Gendarmerie who drank half a bottle of my Scotch)
Isle De Yeu at anchor Anse De Vielle (once)
La Rochelle (once)

We were also checked by UK Customs last year 10mls off Poole, returning from France.


We aren't unusual, we just go lots of places over lots of years.
 
Thanks Folks

Looked at RYA who confirm Robin's understanding that UK boats must be registered if going foreign. They don't say whether or what regulation or law this is. Sounds like a strange old law to me but looks like everyone will have to get registered.

Just out of interest I have not been asked for papers in Brest, Cameret, Douarnenez, Boulogne or Morbihan ports. In fact the only ones who have wanted them so far have been the Russians.
 
Re: Seems superfluous

Hi Charles,

J'aime vraiment la langue courant mais malheuresment je ne jamais pas le possibility l'apprendre.

. . . and that exhausts my entire vocabulary.

Sounds better than "Sorry mate. I don't understand" though.
 
"The law says that a UK owned vessel needs to be registered unless it is operating in UK waters."

I would very much like a reference to this UK 'statute' as I have never come across it or seen reference to it.
As far as I can make out, it is a requirement by countries (probably including UK) for foreign visiting boats to have some sort of registration, hence we supply SSR to enable UK boats to comply when abroad.
 
When I went to register my boat, much to my surprise, it was accomplished in 20min. And no fee. This is for a homebuilt, and applies up to 25mt!. The rules were changed about 3/4 yrs ago. Friend did it 3yrs before and did no end of hoop jumping, stability tests and took months.
So not all French rules are severe or obstructive. It is also perfectly OK to reg. your boat in Belgium and avoid the restrictive equipement and distance from port rules. My local supplier of glass and resins said he knows of several French boats on the SSR and a Brit who gave his French address for his SSR, came back with no comment.
A
 
[ QUOTE ]

"The law says that a UK owned vessel needs to be registered unless it is operating in UK waters."

[/ QUOTE ]

What I meant was that there is no need for registration for any boat until they want to go out of the UK, then UK law requires that boat to be registered for it to be considered as 'British' or is it isn't British and who the heck cares what other county's legislators do with it!

I may not be able to point to legislation (I haven't looked) but then nor can I point to legislation that says you need a licence to drive a car, but I do know that you do!

The sole reason for the SSR scheme was to provide a simple less costly method of registering. Prior to then boats with Blue Book Registry (now Part 1) were OK to go anywhere and at that time the French didn't care very much if those that didn't have it visited France. Trouble was lots of French boats then sprouted Red Ensigns to dodge French rules and also to dodge French VAT so the French cleverly said well UK rules say if you want to be British in foreign waters then you need to be registered, so please show us your papers... Part1 or Blue Book Registry was and still is more rigid in that there cannot be two boats with the same name, a mortgage can be recorded against it and a record of all owners, changes of address and even a change of engine have to be documented. I put a new engine in my previous boat and had to have an approved surveyor document the change and at a cost. The SSR scheme was introduced and run by the RYA as a cheap quick workaround, later it was handed over to the MCA or whatever that does the full Registry. The same rules apply even for a Mirror or a Laser Dinghy carried into France on a roof rack, but probably rarely enforced.

Others can argue and take risks if they like but the French authorities have no sense of humour until they have relieved people of their euros, then they are really laughing!
 
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I think they must have you down as a dodgy character while I am obviously as pure a driven snow!!



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Probably true. It is a list accumulated over many years and in the days of proper duty free we used to have as many as 7 or 8 weekends per year over the Channel as well as a week in Spring and up to 6 weeks in summer.

We've also had visits in UK waters from UK Customs, in Salcombe, Falmouth, Dartmouth, Weymouth and even once when at anchor in Studland, on Studland Beach whilst walking the dog. We were stopped by the big Customs boat last year 10mls out, they drop a big black RIB down a slipway on the stern and over they come whilst the big boat follows. This same boat stopped friends off Alderney and in an earlier year they'd been stopped by the French big boat in much the same place.

So be patient, your time will come.... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Robin,
I still disagree! To the best of my knowledge there is no UK statutory requirement for UK yachts to be registered. Also the SSR was set up as a result of UK citizens being hassled by mainly the French authorities to provide documentation which at that time and still is not required by the Uk.

Unless someone can state a relevant statute I suspect that we are going to have to agree to disagree.
 
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Unless someone can state a relevant statute I suspect that we are going to have to agree to disagree.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK by me, it isn't my money paying a fine or me being locked up in a French jail!

I don't really care but the point is that law or not if you go to France without the papers you will, sooner or later, luck out and get done. That is the one and only message that I personally want to pass to someone who asks if registration is required to visit France, anything else IMO is irresponsible.
 
So are you really really sure papers are required /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
Probably not required under UK law, but probably IS required under the law of every other nation, if a UK boat visits.

UN Convention on Conditions for Registration of Ships, Article 6(4):

4. A State should ensure that ships flying its flag carry documentation including information about the identity of the owner or owners, the operator or operators or the person or persons accountable for the operation of such ships, and make available such information to port State authorities.

So even if UK law doesn't require it, foreign Port State Authorities could demand it.
 
[ QUOTE ]


OK by me, it isn't my money paying a fine or me being locked up in a French jail!



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I won't be fined either! All my boats are or have been on the Part 1 or 3. I do not like people being misinformed.

Perhaps this is a thread that PBO can base an informative and definitive article on.
 
I’ve seen no evidence of a French offence of ‘failure to produce your SSR document’. Given that I’m inclined to believe there’s no such law.

If it existed it would be trivial for someone who spoke French to quote such a law, yet nobody does. Can anyone think of a single reason why someone who had seen evidence of such a law would refuse to disclose it? To quote Samuel Johnson "To revenge reasonable incredulity, by refusing evidence, is a degree of insolence, with which the world is not yet acquainted; and stubborn audacity is the last refuge of guilt."

Can anyone point at the specific legislation that would be used to prosecute someone who went to France with a photocopy of his SSR? Once we’ve seen that, we could see the part of the legislation that makes it compulsory to have SSR on a Yacht but not on the Yacht’s tender. I think we can all agree this would settle the question once and for all.

Nobody will ever prove that it’s perfectly legal to go to France without an original SSR document on board, but it should be trivial to prove it’s illegal. A single newspaper story of a prosecution. Reference to the law itself. Why are these absent?




Some food for thought, taken from other YBW threads on this:

The RYA interpretation of the law:

RYA Autumn 08 Magazine.
"Cruising yacht crews will be going out for dinner, sight seeing, shopping and generally making use of facilities ashore in their destination port. These activities bring pleasure boaters under the jurisdiction of the Coastal State you could be required to adhere to all the local regulations"

"The coastal state will generally refrain from interfering with the internal affairs of foreign flagged vessels as a matter of comity"

RYA Web site:
http://www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/boatingabroad/Pages/boatingabroadpaperwork.aspx

”Registration of non-commercial pleasure craft [snip] is compulsory if you wish to take your boat abroad. This applies both to boats which are sailed or driven to a foreign port and to dinghies, ribs, sports boats and PWC etc. which are trailered to other countries.”


Some general links that might help:
http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/I/InnocentPassage.aspx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innocent_passage
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1584/is_nSUPP-1_v6/ai_16797310/pg_10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Convention_on_the_Law_of_the_Sea
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1995/ukpga_19950021_en_1

In the UK we haven’t even got a cast iron definition of a Merchant Ship:
http://webjcli.ncl.ac.uk/2006/issue2/grant2.html
 
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