For those that rely on GPS, don't go near Cyprus!

[boatmike]

While I recognise that most people including me use GPS as their main information system these days that is different from it being a "primary" system. Primary systems are those that have served mariners since the time of Magellan. Basically dead reckoning and astro. in one form or another supplemented by information from any other source available . I have done my share of offshore sailing and crossed the Atlantic twice before GPS was even available. I suppose at nearly 80 years of age that might make me a dinosaur in some peoples eyes but while my boating is more modest these days I always at least make a note of my position in the log each hour when out of sight of land and am well capable of reverting to "primary" systems if all the electricery goes wrong. The original post talked of people "relying" on GPS which is I am afraid, in my humble opinion dangerous if you cant get along without it. If I was closing Cyprus without the advantage of GPS I would not see that as an insurmountable problem any more than I would guess the pilot of an aircraft would on landing his plane if the GPS went up the swanee........

 

[skipmac]

...and I'd hesitate to describe astro as a primary navigation system since it's weather dependent.

Agree. Have had that problem.

Years back when I did deliveries back and forth to the Caribbean I made one trip when it was totally overcast for two weeks. Finally saw a horizon and star just at twilight the evening DR predicted landfall and got a quick latitude from Polaris. Turned out DR was right on but it was very relieving to finally get a confirmation.

 

[Newboy6458]

Not flown an airliner since 2013 but our airbus fleet had multi mode receivers. The navigation computer was able to tell you exactly how it was deriving it’s fixes if you needed to know, but normally either Nav accuracy high or GPS primary was all you wanted to see.

Regarding that particular corner of the universe we would have pages of NOTAM info about who to talk to. If coming from the north, Istanbul radar would hand you to a radar unit in northern Cyprus ignoring Nicosia who had recognised control of the area. No coordination between the two meant we had to split the flight deck radios between pilots. Not a great situation. Single crew would have been a nightmare.
Plus going the other way you often had Nicosia telling you that you had a shadow, especially coming out from Damascus. Difficult place for all sorts of reasons.

 

[Gallant Spirit]

Any idea what they do if signal is jammed and the ship is using ECDIS, and not carrying paper charts?

we use a form of inertial navigation, and underwater acoustics so not a huge issue for us.......

 

[Gallant Spirit]

I wonder if any aircraft or ships still use inertial navigation systems? I bet submarines do, but maybe GPS has allowed inertial to be phased out for normal commercial operations.

they are still in use

 

[Ravi]

No one should ever "rely" on GPS. It is fundamentally an aid to navigation not a primary navigation system.
Apart from the fact that it relies on electronic systems that can fail at any time it is primarily a military system owned and run by the USA and can be switched off or degraded deliberately for strategic or tactical reasons at any time, anywhere. With RAF and US based at Akrotiri and being very much in the front line regarding Syria and the middle east generally it would not be surprising if decisions were made to turn it off or as also sometimes happens deliberately feed errors into it to protect "assets"

You should be careful about posting factually incorrect and misleading statements about safety issues.

Your statements about GPS being "primarily a military system ... owned and run by the USA..... can be switched off or degraded deliberately for strategic or tactical reasons at any time" are about 20 years out of date and very misleading.

Contrary to what you write, GPS IS a "primary navigation system". In fact, GPS is a core component in GNSS which stands for Gobal Navigation Satellite System.

You should read up about GNSS and GPS. This article is a good starting point.

What is GNSS?

 

[Gallant Spirit]

Do aircraft not still use Non directional beacons for navigation ?, I know helicopters still do

 

[Stemar]

As you say it can and is locally degraded or (rarely) jammed for military reasons but this appreciably jeopardises civilian traffic and can pose a hazard to air-safety. It is and must always done with due warning by NOTAM - which we all read assiduously, I'm sure...

And I'm sure that Russia, Syria and Israel assiduously follow this rule...

 

[Gary Fox]

Do aircraft not still use Non directional beacons for navigation ?, I know helicopters still do

Still in use but generally being phased out, among great contoversy and endless entrenched discussions, which will fester to the last syllable of recorded time... just like certain yaching topics

 

[Slowboat35]

And I'm sure that Russia, Syria and Israel assiduously follow this rule...

A curious selection of nations but I'll let that pass...
In the vanishingly unlikely event that you might be sailing in any of those regions in times of conflict that may be correct.
But so what? It won't affect any of us, will it?

Do aircraft not still use Non directional beacons for navigation ?, I know helicopters still do

No NDBs are left in Europe and damn few if any in the Western world as airways beacons. There may still be a handful in Russia.
Again in Europe some still exist as airfield approch aids but non-precision approaches using them are all but a thing of the past. Again, probably more elsewhere.
Helicopters use them no more than aeroplanes do except in the very specific role on oil/gas rigs where they do remain a useful tool as approach aids.

 

[Alicatt]

we use a form of inertial navigation, and underwater acoustics so not a huge issue for us.......

And here I thought it was Decca Navigators that you used...


Ex Decca Service Engineer.

From here: Decca Navigator - Marine Receivers and Indicators (jproc.ca)

 

[Newboy6458]

Hi Sowboat, from your post:
No NDBs are left in Europe and damn few if any in the Western world as airways beacons. There may still be a handful in Russia.
Again in Europe some still exist as airfield approch aids but non-precision approaches using them are all but a thing of the past. Again, probably more elsewhere.

Sorry, confused. If no NDBs are left in Europe, how come some exist for non precision approaches?
SkyDemon currently lists an ndb locator approach to Runway 20 using the EAS beacon.

 

[Birdseye]

Not that long ago I did a trip on a Safmarine container ship where theGerman master switched off the GPS in Bremerhaven and made his crew navigate the old way from there to Santa Cruz. Even the entry to prt was the old way but then taking compass bearings from the bridge of a sizeable ship is an accurate way of navigating backed up by two radars anyway.

I guess its a bit more difficult in the air but still shouldnt be that much of a problem given radar guidance on the way in and given that GPS has only been around for what - maybe 25 years - and passenger planes have flown safely for a lot longer than that.

 

[ip485]

Do aircraft not still use Non directional beacons for navigation ?, I know helicopters still do

Most commercial aircraft have INS. On some types it is definitely mandatory. On others, it isnt. It is costly and almost no GA will have INS.

Other radio navigation aids are also used. VOR's are still in operation world wide, NDB's are slowly being phased out. ILS 's will be in place at most (not all) commercial airports. GPS approaches are becoming more common world wide albeit with higher minima.

GPS is used for most en route navigation as the primary system. Even INS will accept corrections from GPS, as it does drift.

 

[Slowboat35]

Hi Sowboat, from your post:
No NDBs are left in Europe and damn few if any in the Western world as airways beacons. There may still be a handful in Russia.
Again in Europe some still exist as airfield approch aids but non-precision approaches using them are all but a thing of the past. Again, probably more elsewhere.

Sorry, confused. If no NDBs are left in Europe, how come some exist for non precision approaches?
SkyDemon currently lists an ndb locator approach to Runway 20 using the EAS beacon.

I think your reading of my post was somewhat perfunctory, Read it again, understand it; it is perfectly clear!

If no NDBs are left in Europe,

I said no such thing!

Most commercial aircraft have INS. On some types it is definitely mandatory. On others, it isnt. It is costly and almost no GA will have INS.

Many, but not most I suspect. There are a great deal more 'commercial' aircraft around than the shiny new airliners we go on holiday in. Shorthaul turboprops and older freighters, even airliners of which there are tens of thousands worlwide almost certainly won't have INS, its quite inappropriate. Even the astonishing ring-laser gyro INS that so wowed us on the 737-300 is now all but obsolete.
INS is a route-specific, not type specific requirement where it is even a requirement at all. Clearly that means types intended for such routes will have it, but it isn't specifically demanded by type.
INS is now far less important and no longer considered a precision navigation aid, very much a secondary system nowadays.

Apparently some submarines now navigate by gravitational and geo-surface (terrain following efectively) mapping which is completely unjammable, operable at depth (unlike any radio based system) and doesn't drift at all. It does however require a comprehensive database of previous surveys to work. It is believed that a great part of any nation's submarine fleet's work is extending and perfecting this mapping, especially in potential foes' waters.

 

[Newboy6458]

Hi Slowboat.
I admit I missed the airways bit, but that clashed with my recall of operating into northern Italy.
A quick chance at the Italian AIP for Turin and Venice show they still pull you off airways at co located NDB and VOR beacons TOP and CHI respectively.

A curious selection of nations but I'll let that pass...
In the vanishingly unlikely event that you might be sailing in any of those regions in times of conflict that may be correct.
But so what? It won't affect any of us, will it?


No NDBs are left in Europe and damn few if any in the Western world as airways beacons. There may still be a handful in Russia.
Again in Europe some still exist as airfield approch aids but non-precision approaches using them are all but a thing of the past. Again, probably more elsewhere.
Helicopters use them no more than aeroplanes do except in the very specific role on oil/gas rigs where they do remain a useful tool as approach aids.

 

[ip485]

I nearly said the “big stuff”. Clearly not much need on Sheds ? but also the same is true of the short haul fleet. Aircraft flip routes but the fleet kit tends to be reasonably standard. Anyway we drift, the reality is GPS is the technology of the moment, and we are pretty reliant on it.

 

[boomerangben]

I think NDBs are much under rated. Simple, long range and very comforting to have a green needle pointing back to the beach when offshore in poor weather and minimum fuel. GPS rocks of course but the VOR fades all too soon.

 

[ghostlymoron]

...and I'd hesitate to describe astro as a primary navigation system since it's weather dependent.

Astro position needs site reduction tables so it needs books as well as sextant. Also the calcs take me quite a while so it gives the position half an hour ago - not so bad for a sail boat but less so for power.

 

[boatmike]

The US government have repeatedly and unequivocally stated that under no circumstances will GPS be "switched off". Their military rely on it as much as the rest of us do as does much of their kit which would be rendered useless without it. Civilian life would come to, if not a complete standstill then an agonising crawl without it. The economic consequences would be immense as would the furious global political outrage resulting from such a damaging move. If they ever were forced to shut it down I suspect the world wouldn't be in a mindset to be worrying about a mere few thousand aircraft and ships getting lost.

Well its wonderful to know that unequivocal assurances have been given by the pentagon. If you trust that statement there is not a problem is there???? However as this is a yachting site my reply was aimed at yachties rather than aircraft, submarines, horses and carts or any other forms of transport ancient or modern. It also was implying that many other things such as flat batteries or equipment failure on the boat (electricery generally) can fail and leave you without GPS. This is particularly true of sophisticated integrated systems where one fails and it all fails. However I have already suggested that many will view me as a dinosaur and happy to own up to the fact that my advice is possibly 20 years out of date, but certainly 20 years ago the RYA taught that GPS should be viewed as an aid to navigation rather than a primary source. Perhaps someone can tell me what has changed in the last 20 years other than people becoming complacent?
However, regardless of all this the original poster suggested that those who rely on GPS should probably avoid Cyprus. My main point, if not clear is that this is probably good advice for anyone who can't navigate without it but we should all be competent in the basics of DR and chartwork and should never be lost without it.