Flying a masthead spinnaker on 3/4 rig

jastic

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I plan to fly a masthead symmetrical spinnaker on my 3/4 fractional rigged 12m cruising catamaran in up to 20 knots true between 150/180 degrees. The main will be dropped and stowed, the topping lift and main sheet pulled in as hard as possible.
Am I courting disaster?
 

Concerto

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Yes. You need a mainsail up to be able to drop the spinnaker in 20 knots, otherwise you risk damage to the spinnaker, getting it wet or injuring whoever is pulling the sheet to retrieve the spinnaker. The power in 20 knots of wind on a spinnaker can be violent. This advice comes from being a spinnaker handler on race boats for decades and now I sail my ¾ rigged Fulmar singlehanded including using the spinnaker.

You would be better with a correct sized spinnaker for the fore triangle and keeping the mainsail up. When dropping in winds in excess of 10 knots, take the sheet via a snatch block to the aft end of the coachroof. This keeps the leech behind the mainsail and as soon as the guy is tripped, the sail becomes easy to gather behind the mainsail and drop into the cockpit without any problems.

If you want to see what sailing under spinnaker in stronger winds, watch my video.

 

dunedin

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Was the mast and rigging designed to carry masthead spinnakers? Some are. But this needs more support for the top section of the mast.
If designed for spinnakers only at the top of the forestay, this could be a fast way of breaking the top off the mast and invalidating your insurance cover.
Likely to be BIG forces involved at the masthead with a big kite up 8n 20 knots - particularly when you get a sudden squall and the wind increases before can get down.
 

flaming

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I plan to fly a masthead symmetrical spinnaker on my 3/4 fractional rigged 12m cruising catamaran in up to 20 knots true between 150/180 degrees. The main will be dropped and stowed, the topping lift and main sheet pulled in as hard as possible.
Am I courting disaster?
Why symmetrical on a cat? That's quite unusual....

I'd have thought an A-sail that you could tack to either bow or a centre point would be a much more versatile sail.

And I echo the comments from Concerto above to keep the main up.
 

Chiara’s slave

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Why symmetrical on a cat? That's quite unusual....

I'd have thought an A-sail that you could tack to either bow or a centre point would be a much more versatile sail.

And I echo the comments from Concerto above to keep the main up.
An asymmetric with a tack system to allow it to be pulled to either bow or the centre is exactly what he needs.
 

oldbloke

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When I did the ARC a few years ago a lot of the multihull, and some of the monos, were flying just a symmetrical spinnaker. The multihull were sheeting to the outer bows and not using poles.
Everyone appeared to go dead down wind. The only boat I saw taking hot angles was a French Pogo.
We were using a snuffer and on a stable foredeck dowsing was no big deal.
 

jastic

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When I did the ARC a few years ago a lot of the multihull, and some of the monos, were flying just a symmetrical spinnaker. The multihull were sheeting to the outer bows and not using poles.
Everyone appeared to go dead down wind. The only boat I saw taking hot angles was a French Pogo.
We were using a snuffer and on a stable foredeck dowsing was no big deal.
Many thanks, you've got it, this is a passaging making set intended to provide low stress mile gobbling. I'm interested to know what others think of the use of the topping lift and main sheet to provide support to the top section of the mast. I've previously used runners to support a large code 0 on a similar rig on an earlier cat and never sensed they where actually having to do any work.
Any riggers or architect out there?
 

dunedin

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Many thanks, you've got it, this is a passaging making set intended to provide low stress mile gobbling. I'm interested to know what others think of the use of the topping lift and main sheet to provide support to the top section of the mast. I've previously used runners to support a large code 0 on a similar rig on an earlier cat and never sensed they where actually having to do any work.
Any riggers or architect out there?
Can't see how any "riggers or architect" could give any advice about whether the rig would stay up or break without at least knowing the boat model and current rig & staying arrangements.
 

bignick

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Suggest you email the mast manufacturer.
If there’s a masthead sheave with an internal halyard (as opposed to an external one that someone may have bolted to the masthead fitting) then it would suggest that it has been designed to take the load. However, only the rig manufacturer will know the load cases it was designed to withstand.
 

jastic

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An asymmetric with a tack system to allow it to be pulled to either bow or the centre is exactly what he needs.
Disagree, it's not exactly what I need, if it was I would not have made the initial post. On a light weight tri or a high performance cat sailing the angles and jibing might give a better vmg, as long as you are constantly paying attention and trimming. On a typical short handed cruising cat you won't, stated from 16 years of experience with a light weight cruising cat using an A sail on a bridle and an enormous mast head code 0.
 

Chiara’s slave

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Disagree, it's not exactly what I need, if it was I would not have made the initial post. On a light weight tri or a high performance cat sailing the angles and jibing might give a better vmg, as long as you are constantly paying attention and trimming. On a typical short handed cruising cat you won't, stated from 16 years of experience with a light weight cruising cat using an A sail on a bridle and an enormous mast head code 0.
Not even if you pull the tack to the weather bow? The advantage is obviously that the sail would be much better when reaching, and only a little less good on a dead run.
 

jastic

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Seems a little late to ask for advice. I’d like to repeat for emphasis, do not drop your main. You’ll not be able to keep control of any spinnaker without it.
rubbish, I suspect you have no experience of sailing a cruising cat. The typical rig does not allow you to square off the main therefore, with out a preventer, sailing deeper than 160T you are risking a jibe, and the drive from the main is compromised because it is effectively sheeted in
 

jastic

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Not even if you pull the tack to the weather bow? The advantage is obviously that the sail would be much better when reaching, and only a little less good on a dead run.
No been there done that. The code 0 is fine to 130T and the A sail for the 30 degrees to 160T. This is all about hassle free dead running.
 

Chiara’s slave

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rubbish, I suspect you have no experience of sailing a cruising cat. The typical rig does not allow you to square off the main therefore, with out a preventer, sailing deeper than 160T you are risking a jibe, and the drive from the main is compromised because it is effectively sheeted in
You suspect wrong. I do know how difficult it is to handle a spinnaker without being able to drop it behind a mainsail. We rig a preventer on our tri on the rare occasions it’s profitable for us to run deep. That’s when we pull the asymmetric tack to the windward bow. Our kite would be unmanageable without the main though, even though we use a snuffer. The cruising cats I have sailed have all used the same methods, best of luck if you can do better.
 

Chiara’s slave

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No been there done that. The code 0 is fine to 130T and the A sail for the 30 degrees to 160T. This is all about hassle free dead running.
I don’t currently run a Code 0, because we can fly the big A up to about 90 true in light airs, which leaves a tiny window for the code sail. Obviously we don’t need anything bigger to reach if it’s more than about 8kn, when we start to be over powered by the Asymmetric. I appreciate the dynamics are different on your boat, but not the sail handling or the useful apparent wind angles, unless your A sail is a bag like a symmetric kite.
 

Daydream believer

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I think that the risk of putting a kite off the top of a mast might be higher on a multihulll than on a mono hull. It is only an observation, as I have not tried it on a mutihull. However, in a strong gust a monohull will heal over & give a little to the initial burst. It may also broach with the mast tipping over. With a multi the mast will be stiffer. The yacht can only accelerate so much & it may hit into the back of a sea thus stopping it. This would, I suspect, put massive load on the mast tip. But I expect some multis may have shorter masts. So one has to compare like with like

So those with experience of both may comment. I was on the foredeck of monos for many years & suffered many broaches, but always blamed the helm :cry:. In those days larger boats tended to be IOR masthead jobs, so I cannot really comment with any authority, on how a 7/8 rig performs with the spinny from the "wrong" exit point. But it does seem to me that if the boat can "give" to the initial gusts, the mast has a chance & the crew can take action as required.
 

jastic

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I should have made my initial question clearer, I'm an experienced mono and cat sailor, I'm totally familiar with the all the downwind sail options available, I'm looking technical opinions and observations concerning using the combination of topping lift and main sheet to offer support to the upper, un-stayed, mast section. Clearly I can fit runners, I'm just interested to here thought on the topping lift/main sheet combo.
 
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