Flying a masthead spinnaker on 3/4 rig

[DFL1010]

That got me thinking, better still I could use the topping lift to one quarter strong point and the main halyard to the other, that would also avoid compression on the boom/gooseneck

One word: chafe.

No way you'll get a fair lead, and if you're crossing oceans no way to slack off and inspect either without dropping the kite (except from the masthead, but since both main halyard and topper are in use no way to get there either).

 

[Daydream believer]

One word: chafe.

No way you'll get a fair lead, and if you're crossing oceans no way to slack off and inspect either without dropping the kite (except from the masthead, but since both main halyard and topper are in use no way to get there either).

The OP only plans to carry the kite up to 20 kts true wind speed. . The OP has not said where he intends to sail with this. One assumes an ocean crossing. If so at 20 kts true the sail will be up & down like an whores drawers as 20 kts on something like the ARC is - so I am told- quite average. There are lots of gusts & from videos I can see that he will regularly encounter much stronger winds, even if only for limited periods.
Having a sail that cannot be reefed & which is oversized, will not be much fun. More so as a multihul would easily reach its max with a conventional kite, or asym, flown from the hounds . With the plus of being more manageable.
But the the OP is not interested in that discussion, as he has made clear from the start
So commenting on the quote from above. There will be lots ot time when the sail will not be flying & the halyard, topping lift , can be checked out. Possibly quite easy with the top of the mast at deck level

 

[MisterBaxter]

You'd need both the halyard and the topping lift to be extremely low stretch, I think - Dyneema etc.
Daydream Believer makes a good point, though - what's the strategy as the wind rises? I think for a stress-free life, each stage of the progressive reduction of sail wants to be as simple, bomb-proof and easily reversible as possible.

 

[jastic]

The OP only plans to carry the kite up to 20 kts true wind speed. . The OP has not said where he intends to sail with this. One assumes an ocean crossing. If so at 20 kts true the sail will be up & down like an whores drawers as 20 kts on something like the ARC is - so I am told- quite average. There are lots of gusts & from videos I can see that he will regularly encounter much stronger winds, even if only for limited periods.
Having a sail that cannot be reefed & which is oversized, will not be much fun. More so as a multihul would easily reach its max with a conventional kite, or asym, flown from the hounds . With the plus of being more manageable.
But the the OP is not interested in that discussion, as he has made clear from the start
So commenting on the quote from above. There will be lots ot time when the sail will not be flying & the halyard, topping lift , can be checked out. Possibly quite easy with the top of the mast at deck level

Quite right, I have made no mention of crossing oceans, I crossed Biscay last year (Gijon-La Rochelle) and this year the longest passage will probably be Ushant - Scilly and maybe Baltimore- Scilly if the weather is fair.
On the Biscay crossing we had 5-10 knots pushing us down wind for the first 5 hours, the masthead spinnaker would have kept us moving quite nicely. That's the use to which it will be put, light airs, dead down wind. I quoted 20 knots to give a margin for error, as we approach 15 we will be preparing to drop. Thanks again for your support, given most of the drivel this post has generated it's not likely I'll post again in the near future and if I do, I'll make the question crystal clear and state what I don't want to hear about!

 

[jastic]

You'd need both the halyard and the topping lift to be extremely low stretch, I think - Dyneema etc.
Daydream Believer makes a good point, though - what's the strategy as the wind rises? I think for a stress-free life, each stage of the progressive reduction of sail wants to be as simple, bomb-proof and easily reversible as possible.

yes, the topping lift needs replacing and I had Dyneema in mind, many thanks

 

[jastic]

One word: chafe.

No way you'll get a fair lead, and if you're crossing oceans no way to slack off and inspect either without dropping the kite (except from the masthead, but since both main halyard and topper are in use no way to get there either).

good point, I was up the mast a couple of weeks ago to inspect the smoothness of the "cheeks" having found some abrasion on the topping lift. Turned out it was routed through the wrong side and was being pinched by the main halyard.

 

[jastic]

You're planning on doing something which an average person would not given detailed consideration. You'll run a good risk of dismasting mid-ocean, it's a bad idea which you appear fixated on because you've already bought a kite which is presumably too big to be flown other than from the masthead. Running the risk of breaking a mast because of buyer's remorse is quite reckless.

Phew, I'd hate to think I was considered Average!!!! The rest of your quote is uninformed drivel.

 

[Daydream believer]

. Thanks again for your support, given most of the drivel this post has generated it's not likely I'll post again in the near future and if I do, I'll make the question crystal clear and state what I don't want to hear about!

I think you should be reasonable about this. Conversations develop. If you go in any pub or club bar & ask a question about a topic- this one for instance- the subject will wander. ieSome will even raise the insurance issue. Something that you may never have thought of. Some might interupt and ask whose round it is . You cannot just walk in & demand that people answer your question like a detective at a police interview. This is a forum, not Z cars. You will always get a few off the cuff remarks in the club or pub. The forum is no different. Just because you may feel frustrated at what is written, you should accept that it is no different to a face to face group. In this case the group is one of 1000's & you can expect answers to vary.

So think like this. If you have 6 mates in a pub & the conversation varies off the subject about which you want to discuss. Do you tell them to stop talking drivel & shut up. Because if you do, then you should change your avetar to @Billy No Mates

 

[jastic]

I think you should be reasonable about this. Conversations develop. If you go in any pub or club bar & ask a question about a topic- this one for instance- the subject will wander. ieSome will even raise the insurance issue. Something that you may never have thought of. Some might interupt and ask whose round it is . You cannot just walk in & demand that people answer your question like a detective at a police interview. This is a forum, not Z cars. You will always get a few off the cuff remarks in the club or pub. The forum is no different. Just because you may feel frustrated at what is written, you should accept that it is no different to a face to face group. In this case the group is one of 1000's & you can expect answers to vary.

So think like this. If you have 6 mates in a pub & the conversation varies off the subject about which you want to discuss. Do you tell them to stop talking drivel & shut up. Because if you do, then you should change your avetar to @Billy No Mates

good points, noted!

 

[flaming]

Quite right, I have made no mention of crossing oceans, I crossed Biscay last year (Gijon-La Rochelle) and this year the longest passage will probably be Ushant - Scilly and maybe Baltimore- Scilly if the weather is fair.
On the Biscay crossing we had 5-10 knots pushing us down wind for the first 5 hours, the masthead spinnaker would have kept us moving quite nicely. That's the use to which it will be put, light airs, dead down wind. I quoted 20 knots to give a margin for error, as we approach 15 we will be preparing to drop. Thanks again for your support, given most of the drivel this post has generated it's not likely I'll post again in the near future and if I do, I'll make the question crystal clear and state what I don't want to hear about!

If you are doing this in order to go faster downwind in 5-10, then I think you’re going to be disappointed. We have a large masthead kite, 85sqm on a 32 foot boat. In 6 knots of breeze my TWA downhill is about 140. It doesn’t get over 160 until about 12 knots. In 6 knots the pole is basically on the forestay and the apparent is about 90, but we’re doing 5 knots through the water and VMG at about 4.

If your goal is to make quicker downwind progress in the light then a large symmetric and running dead downhill is categorically not the way to go. I confess I’d assumed that the goal here was easy hull speed running in 15ish, not light airs progress.

Remember that racing boats actually use smaller spinnakers in light airs, and sail hotter angles. A lot of passage racing boats who have symmetrical kites for their main runner also have a smaller, flatter, A-sail for VMG running in sub 10 knot conditions.

 

[jastic]

If you are doing this in order to go faster downwind in 5-10, then I think you’re going to be disappointed. We have a large masthead kite, 85sqm on a 32 foot boat. In 6 knots of breeze my TWA downhill is about 140. It doesn’t get over 160 until about 12 knots. In 6 knots the pole is basically on the forestay and the apparent is about 90, but we’re doing 5 knots through the water and VMG at about 4.

If your goal is to make quicker downwind progress in the light then a large symmetric and running dead downhill is categorically not the way to go. I confess I’d assumed that the goal here was easy hull speed running in 15ish, not light airs progress.

Remember that racing boats actually use smaller spinnakers in light airs, and sail hotter angles. A lot of passage racing boats who have symmetrical kites for their main runner also have a smaller, flatter, A-sail for VMG running in sub 10 knot conditions.

on the biscay passage I described the main was stowed and we "poled out" the genoa using the boom and goose winged the code 0, thats approx 80m2 combined, it worked fine, my reasoning is that a 130/140m2 spinnacker would have worked better.

 

[penfold]

A bunch of people who are variously experienced at sailing, all telling you the same thing; your reaction is to get snippy with them for disagreeing with you. Good luck getting across the pond with your masthead where it is supposed to be.

 

[Daydream believer]

on the biscay passage I described the main was stowed and we "poled out" the genoa using the boom and goose winged the code 0, thats approx 80m2 combined, it worked fine, my reasoning is that a 130/140m2 spinnacker would have worked better.

Nothing to do with the topping lift query- That has been done to death & by now we should be on the next round of drinks in the bar
So can we ask? Are you after a sail that is more stable? I can imagine a goose winged code zero flapping about in some light, rolly, conditions.
Or are you after more speed? On the length of boat that you are using-39 ft- there is a limit to top speed, when going dead down wind. Especially if it is an older heavier design. Although being 7/8 rig suggests something racier, but you have not said what.
Surely the first rig you used would have given you a good speed range. If it is stability of the sail in use one can accept some issues there. But that must be weighed against how easy it is to handle in the drop etc.?
Is it really worth changing to a masthead spinny? Of course you will not know until you try, so it might be hypothetical at this stage.

 

[jastic]

Nothing to do with the topping lift query- That has been done to death & by now we should be on the next round of drinks in the bar
So can we ask? Are you after a sail that is more stable? I can imagine a goose winged code zero flapping about in some light, rolly, conditions.
Or are you after more speed? On the length of boat that you are using-39 ft- there is a limit to top speed, when going dead down wind. Especially if it is an older heavier design. Although being 7/8 rig suggests something racier, but you have not said what.
Surely the first rig you used would have given you a good speed range. If it is stability of the sail in use one can accept some issues there. But that must be weighed against how easy it is to handle in the drop etc.?
Is it really worth changing to a masthead spinny? Of course you will not know until you try, so it might be hypothetical at this stage.

Yes, more stability and more sail area. You are right, goose winging the code was not ideal but combined with the "poled out" genoa it demonstrated we could make good progress downwind in the direction of our intended destination, clearly if we had been hit with a gust of 20+knots it would have take a while to clear the set. Our ability to be able to set both bow guys and sheets to both clews will give a a very stable set for the spinnaker. A couple of things to bear in mind (guessing you are not a cat sailor?) the foredeck of a cat is a much, much friendlier place to work than a mono and if you motor briskly ahead (7.5 knots for us) whilst you are dropping and clearing up the you reduce the apparent wind dramatically. So when it comes to dropping the spinnaker because the wind has edged up to the top of our range, it "should" be simply a case of start the engines, go forward on the nice spacious and stable foredeck, spike one of the clew guys/sheets, bring the motors up to full ahead and then snuff and drop and tidy up. "She" is a Nautitech 40 S2 from 2008 and you could call her an old school cruiser, narrow hulls, fixed low aspect keels so she can take the ground and a modest, sturdy, low aspect rig. image attached

 

[jastic]

A bunch of people who are variously experienced at sailing, all telling you the same thing; your reaction is to get snippy with them for disagreeing with you. Good luck getting across the pond with your masthead where it is supposed to be.

many thanks again for your detailed and constructive comments and who said I was crossing the pond? Not I.

 

[flaming]

on the biscay passage I described the main was stowed and we "poled out" the genoa using the boom and goose winged the code 0, thats approx 80m2 combined, it worked fine, my reasoning is that a 130/140m2 spinnacker would have worked better.

Not much better I think. Might get another half a knot if you’re really lucky in the light.
Unless you’re sailing angles the diminishing returns of sail area when going dead downwind will kick in.

To be honest, the effort to returns on this endeavour really aren’t stacking up to me. You will get a lot, lot more benefit sticking to a tried and tested A-sail setup and sailing angles. And you’ll also benefit when you actually want to go a bit off downwind, which your setup won’t.

And your description of motoring flat chat to drop the kite is giving me very strong “rope round prop” premonitions. Especially since your props are on the edges of your boat…

But it’s your choice. I can only stress my very sincere advice to talk this through with an actual rigger who has seen the boat.

 

[dunedin]

Yes, more stability and more sail area. You are right, goose winging the code was not ideal but combined with the "poled out" genoa it demonstrated we could make good progress downwind in the direction of our intended destination, clearly if we had been hit with a gust of 20+knots it would have take a while to clear the set. Our ability to be able to set both bow guys and sheets to both clews will give a a very stable set for the spinnaker. A couple of things to bear in mind (guessing you are not a cat sailor?) the foredeck of a cat is a much, much friendlier place to work than a mono and if you motor briskly ahead (7.5 knots for us) whilst you are dropping and clearing up the you reduce the apparent wind dramatically. So when it comes to dropping the spinnaker because the wind has edged up to the top of our range, it "should" be simply a case of start the engines, go forward on the nice spacious and stable foredeck, spike one of the clew guys/sheets, bring the motors up to full ahead and then snuff and drop and tidy up. "She" is a Nautitech 40 S2 from 2008 and you could call her an old school cruiser, narrow hulls, fixed low aspect keels so she can take the ground and a modest, sturdy, low aspect rig. image attached

If the pole is set correctly (ie triple bracing points) then it would be a matter of moments to furl a poled out genoa if a squall hits, leaving the pole safely braced where it was. That is standard practice.
A code sail on a furler would be similarly easy. And massively easier than a large single symmetric spinnaker.

PS. You would have to motor seriously fast downwind to make much impact on the apparent wind speed in a 30 knot gust, plus as Flaming says kite drops and motoring are a great recipe for disaster.

 

[jastic]

If the pole is set correctly (ie triple bracing points) then it would be a matter of moments to furl a poled out genoa if a squall hits, leaving the pole safely braced where it was. That is standard practice.
A code sail on a furler would be similarly easy. And massively easier than a large single symmetric spinnaker.

PS. You would have to motor seriously fast downwind to make much impact on the apparent wind speed in a 30 knot gust, plus as Flaming says kite drops and motoring are a great recipe for disaster.

please re read, I said the boom was used to "pole out" the genoa, the genoa sheet was fed through a block on the boom so a faff to clear in a hurry.
re motoring downwind, if it's blowing at 15 knots (our expected, self imposed limit) and we are motoring at 7.5 the apparent will be 7.5. Likewise if we were motoring at 7.5 in 30 knots the apparent would be 22.5, I'd argue thats quite an impact

 

[dunedin]

please re read, I said the boom was used to "pole out" the genoa, the genoa sheet was fed through a block on the boom so a faff to clear in a hurry.
re motoring downwind, if it's blowing at 15 knots (our expected, self imposed limit) and we are motoring at 7.5 the apparent will be 7.5. Likewise if we were motoring at 7.5 in 30 knots the apparent would be 22.5, I'd argue thats quite an impact

Please reread your own posts #47 that I quoted. You said ‘poled out’, but if using the main boom you never specified that. However, even then you should be able to furl the genoa instantly.
However, your combination of arrogance and ignorance is not very endearing.

 

[jastic]

Not much better I think. Might get another half a knot if you’re really lucky in the light.
Unless you’re sailing angles the diminishing returns of sail area when going dead downwind will kick in.

To be honest, the effort to returns on this endeavour really aren’t stacking up to me. You will get a lot, lot more benefit sticking to a tried and tested A-sail setup and sailing angles. And you’ll also benefit when you actually want to go a bit off downwind, which your setup won’t.

And your description of motoring flat chat to drop the kite is giving me very strong “rope round prop” premonitions. Especially since your props are on the edges of your boat…

But it’s your choice. I can only stress my very sincere advice to talk this through with an actual rigger who has seen the boat.

And your description of motoring flat chat to drop the kite is giving me very strong “rope round prop” premonitions. Especially since your props are on the edges of your boat…

All line handling with the engines running has it's risks, the key is to be aware of the risk and seek ways to mitigate it. The spiked sheets and guy will already be safely on the foredeck, the working sheet and bow guy will still be attached so limited in there ability to dive overboard. The snuffer line will be at the foot of the mast so well out of harms way