Fly the Union Jack

[Ubergeekian]

As I said in an earlier post - nothing wrong with flying those from the port spreader, for example, but not as an ensign.

Where does it say that in the act?

Your "scottish red ensign" is extremely close to the red ensign, given that the saltire forms part of the union flag. You could run your argument in court, but I think it is an extremely weak argument and you would probably lose.

I very much doubt that anything without a Union Flag in the corner could be held to be a UK ensign or a modification thereof. That's what makes it a UK flag, not the red, or blue, or white bit.

As a further problem for you, the scottish red ensign is an established flag and predates - for obvious reasons - the current UK red ensign. How can an older flag be a modifocation or defacement of a newer one.

As noted above, your approach is that any difference from the red ensign amounts to a different flag - therefore not a modification.

Not at all. The Manx ensign, for example, is clearly a modified british red ensign.

I have made no judgment on your choice to fly what you call the scottish red ensign (note - the fact that you call it that is another indication that it is a modification of the red ensign).

Nope. I mean what I say: it's a Scottish. Red. Ensign. As opposed to a British. Red. Ensign.
Your mistake is assuming that "red ensign" can only apply to the UK one: that's not the case. Any country could, if it wished, have a red ensign just as any yacht club can have a burgee. "Red ensign" is a type of flag, not a particular one.

I am limiting myself to giving you an interpretation of the law. You might not like it. You might not want to follow it. Those things are up to you. But it won't change my view of what the act says.

That's fine, but your interpretation does seem to be very strongly influenced by wishful thinking.

Edit: That may have come across as a bit personal. It wasn't intended that way, and I recognize that my interpretation is coloured by wishful thinking too.

 

[bbg]

That's fine, but your interpretation does seem to be very strongly influenced by wishful thinking.

Your final statement seems to be based on an assumption that is entirely incorrect. I have no wishful thinking one way or the other (unlike you).

Let me put this in simple terms. I assume your boat is British registered, therefore is a British ship. You are entitled to fly an undefaced / unmodified red ensign. I think we would both agree that your Scottish Red Ensign is NOT an undefaced / unmodified red ensign. You have said it is a different flag, and I think it is defaced or modified, but we both agree it is not an undefaced / unmodified red ensign. So, even though you are entitled to fly a red ensign, you are not obliged to do so and choose not to.
So far, no problem.

The issue is that you DO fly a Scottish Red Ensign. And the act says that a British ship shall NOT fly any other colours. So the question for a court would be whether the Scottish Red Ensign amounts to "colours".

If the Scottish Red Ensign does amount to "colours", for the purposes of the act, you will have contravened the act.

IMO, it is likely that a court would hold that the SRE is "colours". If your assertion that the SRE existed before the RE is correct, that would - again IMO - actually count against you, and make it more likely that a court would find them to be "colours".

That's really all it comes down to. I (who have no interest one way or the other) think the SRE probably does amount to "colours". You think it doesn't. Not much more to say, really.

 

[Ubergeekian]

Your final statement seems to be based on an assumption that is entirely incorrect. I have no wishful thinking one way or the other (unlike you).

I'm afraid that's not how it appears to me.

Let me put this in simple terms. I assume your boat is British registered, therefore is a British ship. You are entitled to fly an undefaced / unmodified red ensign. I think we would both agree that your Scottish Red Ensign is NOT an undefaced / unmodified red ensign. You have said it is a different flag, and I think it is defaced or modified, but we both agree it is not an undefaced / unmodified red ensign. So, even though you are entitled to fly a red ensign, you are not obliged to do so and choose not to.
So far, no problem.

Yup. Agreed completely.

The issue is that you DO fly a Scottish Red Ensign. And the act says that a British ship shall NOT fly any other colours. So the question for a court would be whether the Scottish Red Ensign amounts to "colours".

The penalty is for flying improper national colours. The act (available as http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1995/ukpga_19950021_en_2#pt1-l1g1) makes that perfectly clear

4 Penalty for carrying improper colours

(1) If any of the following colours, namely—

(a) any distinctive national colours except—

(i) the red ensign,

(ii) the Union flag (commonly known as the Union Jack) with a white border, or

(iii) any colours authorised or confirmed under section 2(3)(b); or

(b) any colours usually worn by Her Majesty’s ships or resembling those of Her Majesty, or

(c) the pendant usually carried by Her Majesty’s ships or any pendant resembling that pendant,

are hoisted on board any British ship without warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State, the master of the ship, or the owner of the ship (if on board), and every other person hoisting them shall be guilty of an offence.

So the question is not whether the Scottish red ensign is colours, but whether it is national colours. The political implications of a ruling either way on that would be immensely entertaining.

I think the Scottish flag question is a red herring. If I am guilty of anything, it's of failing to fly the UK red ensign (my boat is Part 1 registered) at times when I should. I'm perfectly happy to take my chances on that.

 

[NormanS]

Scottish Saltire

And I'm perfectly happy to take my chances with the Scottish Saltire.

There could be some interesting court cases coming up!

 

[TamarMike]

I would assume national colours, as far as the MSA is concerned would be a flag certain nationals are entitled to wear, therefore the saltire would not for that purpose be "national colours.

The flag that puzzles me, although I have to admit it looks smart, is the Cornish ensign with the union flag in the top corner which almost certainly is illegal. Why not just fly the St Piran cross (I note "The Flag Loft" list a Cornish red ensign and a Cross with Bezants in the top quarter if anyone wants a distinctive civil ensign)

 

[snowleopard]

I would assume national colours, as far as the MSA is concerned would be a flag certain nationals are entitled to wear, therefore the saltire would not for that purpose be "national colours.

The flag that puzzles me, although I have to admit it looks smart, is the Cornish ensign with the union flag in the top corner which almost certainly is illegal. Why not just fly the St Piran cross

While lots of Cornish people like to maintain the notion that Cornwall is a country, that has no reality in law and the St Piran flag is just as illegal with or without the UJ in the corner.

 

[Ubergeekian]

While lots of Cornish people like to maintain the notion that Cornwall is a country, that has no reality in law and the St Piran flag is just as illegal with or without the UJ in the corner.

Illegal on what basis, precisely? If you read Section 4 of the act (I quoted it a few post up that ^^^ way) you'll see that the offence is flying distinctive national colours without authorisation. As you have just pointed out, Cornwall is not legally a nation so St Piran's cross can't be distinctive national colours.

The intention of the act is this respect is really quite clear when you read it. They want to prevent three things:

1. Foreign vessels pretending to be British. That's covered in Section 3, Offences relating to British character of ship

2. British merchant vessels pretending to be from somewhere else. That's covered in Section 4 Penalty for carrying improper colours (1) (a)

3. British merchant vessels flying any of the naval ensigns. That's covered in Section 4 Penalty for carrying improper colours (1) (b)

So what would be the problem with a British yacht flying a Scottish merchant flag (or a Welsh, or English, or Cornish, or Northern Irish or ...) equivalent? It could only be with the second of these, and that would depend on the flag in question being a national colour. Since none of these subdivisions are - for the moment, anyway, nations, that claim would be problematic. If they are not national colours then the act doesn't care: there is absolutely nothing to stop you flying anything you like, anywhere you like as long is it is not specifically banned.

One issue I can see here is the stipulation that a British red ensign, if flown, must be neither defaced nor modified. As I have written, I think the distinctive part of the British red ensign is the union flag in the corner: without that it's hard to see how a flag could be seen as based on a British ensign. Oddly, however, although section 2 makes the "without defacement or modification" stipulation, section 4, which deals with penalties, doesn't mention it directly - although perhaps a modified British red ensign would be seen unauthorised distinctive national colours.

Alternatively it might be covered under Section 5 Duty to show British flag which is where those of use who use alternatives are definitely vulnerable.

In summary, therefore

1. There are times when we have to fly an ensign. That has to be a red, blue (possibly defaced) or white British ensign. Show the wrong one, something else or nothing at all and we are, theoretically, in trouble.

2. There are times when me may, but need not, fly an ensign. If we do, it has to be the right one (as above) but if we don;t we can fly absolutely anything we like as long as it's not another country's flag.

 

[TamarMike]

While lots of Cornish people like to maintain the notion that Cornwall is a country, that has no reality in law and the St Piran flag is just as illegal with or without the UJ in the corner.

Precisely my point. If it's not a country its flag is not illegal (although obviously not to be used on vessels when an ensign is a mandatory requirement).

 

[mcframe]

So the question is not whether the Scottish red ensign is colours, but whether it is national colours. The political implications of a ruling either way on that would be immensely entertaining.

That's *exactly* the point I've tried to make in many previous threads - like my mate with the big St Piran's "house flag", I wear (with pride) a British Red Ensign in the superior position to indicate our entitlement under the law - the other flags are an indication that, yes, we *know* the law/convention and wish to express our view whilst complying - we're not just numpties wanting to fly a UJ.

(We reckoned a Scottish or other /white/ ensign would be most likely to get the cannons at RYS loaded with grape...)

As I've said before, MSA95 S 5 "Duty to show British flag" indicates when one is *obliged* to hoist a British Red Ensign; I've no problems whatsoever meeting that, should the occasion arise.

 

[wotayottie]

Small matter of the act of union and occupation.............

Why on earth are the paddies so prickly? Whether north or south they seem to love to carry forward the grudges and slights of centuries past.

 

[wotayottie]

So the question is not whether the Scottish red ensign is colours, but whether it is national colours. The political implications of a ruling either way on that would be immensely entertaining.

The answer is fairly clear even though a formal statement of it would, as you say, be politically entertaining. The reality post the Act of Union is that there is one country (the United Kingdom) and our nationality is British so the flag has to be the red ensign. In other than romantic historical terms, England Scotland and Wales are not countries at the moment - they are more like the states of a confederation.

 

[Ubergeekian]

The answer is fairly clear even though a formal statement of it would, as you say, be politically entertaining. The reality post the Act of Union is that there is one country (the United Kingdom) and our nationality is British so the flag has to be the red ensign.

If by that you mean "the only national ensign for any part of the UK is the UK red ensign" then I agree. Any others are strictly unofficial ... for the moment.

In other than romantic historical terms, England Scotland and Wales are not countries at the moment - they are more like the states of a confederation.

It's often said that the UK is three (or four, or three-and-a-half) nations in one country - though I very much doubt that that is what the act means by national colours.

 

[eidiohir]

Why on earth are the paddies so prickly? Whether north or south they seem to love to carry forward the grudges and slights of centuries past.

As my youngest would say
"Are you for real?"

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Yes - so do I.

The construct of the UK is a classic bodge / fudge. What makes a nation and what is a country? Doesnt matter much when times are good and we all have better things to do, but with a general feeling of malaise the ancient differences and identities get dragged out.

 

[LONG_KEELER]

The answer is fairly clear even though a formal statement of it would, as you say, be politically entertaining. The reality post the Act of Union is that there is one country (the United Kingdom) and our nationality is British so the flag has to be the red ensign. In other than romantic historical terms, England Scotland and Wales are not countries at the moment - they are more like the states of a confederation.

How about buying a country ?

We could pick one with a flag that we like.

For example the Yanks bought Louisiana from the French for only $11,250,000. Mainly debts.

I quite like the Icelandic ensign and we could secure quite a few year's of cod and chips at the same time. Also it must be a knock down ( mainly debts) price.

 

[samwise]

How about a stick on?

And I thought anchors produced the biggest response! Re union flags/jacks / jills, what if you
painted a large union flag/jack/jill on each side of your boat.

Slips neatly around the law and avoids the need to take it in at sundown

 

[NormanS]

And I thought anchors produced the biggest response! Re union flags/jacks / jills, what if you
painted a large union flag/jack/jill on each side of your boat.

Slips neatly around the law and avoids the need to take it in at sundown

Lots of Scottish fishing boats have Scottish Saltires painted on both sides.

 

[Doghousekeeper]

Why on earth are the paddies so prickly? Whether north or south they seem to love to carry forward the grudges and slights of centuries past.

Nah, here's one paddy (thanks for the offensive description, by the way) that doesn't give too much of a stuff about the past. On the other hand, irritating racist posts in current time are likely to set off the odd prickle or two

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

It's the OP back again. Been away for a few and mightily suprosed to see so many comments on this one.

Having seen the strength of opinion on this one, I am tempted to give it a go on one hand, but on the other I don't fancy having to fend off boarders who see it as their legal responsibility to confiscate my Union Jack which set me back £60!

Has anyone reflected how slightly absurd it is that if I fly a Union Jack from most parts of the boat or have a Union Jack spinnaker, mainsail, t-shirt, tea-towel, dodger or anything else on my boat I am a patriot, but if I attach it to the pole at the back I am breaking the law and?

I fancy I might copy some of this to Mr Clarkson. More than enough material for a good Sunday Times rant.

Happy Christmas to all.

 

[BelleSerene]

Could it be that we're all missing a trick here?

Quote A: (1) The flag which every British ship is entitled to fly is the red ensign (without any defacement or modification) and, subject to subsections (2) and (3) below, no other colours.

- so a British ship doesn't enjoy an 'entitlement' to fly other colours. But by itself that doesn't mean that it may not; only that it isn't awarded a privilege to do so.

Quote B:
(4) Penalty for carrying improper colours

(1) If any of the following colours, namely—

(a) any distinctive national colours except—

(i) the red ensign,

(ii) the Union flag (commonly known as the Union Jack) with a white border, or

(iii) any colours authorised or confirmed under section 2(3)(b); or

(b) any colours usually worn by Her Majesty’s ships or resembling those of Her Majesty, or

(c) the pendant usually carried by Her Majesty’s ships or any pendant resembling that pendant,

are hoisted on board any British ship without warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State, the master of the ship, or the owner of the ship (if on board), and every other person hoisting them shall be guilty of an offence.

So you commit no offence if you fly a Union flag with a white border.

In which case the answer to the OP would be "no you're not (so long as it's within a white border)"?