Flushing the heads with neat hydrochloric acid

To answer a question similar to the one originally posed I took the seal of a manual toilet, I think a Jabsco, and left it in hydrochloic acid and though in theory they do not swell, in practice they do. They go all wrinkly. The problem must be time dependent and the acid will remain acidfic in the absence of anything to react with it - so if its too concentrated it will remain active on the basis you do not pump it out but leave it to react, or clean, the system. I have the images somewhere. I actually replaced the seal with a piece of printing blanket, worked a treat.
 
snorkmaiden said:
We use white spirit vinegar - a splash daily keeps the pipes fur-free and the toilet just doesn't smell. (Any other vinegar will do, but the clear sort seems sort of less culinary.)
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Sainsburys (and probably others) sell their own brand malt vinegar for about 15p a litre. I use it for all sorts of cleaning jobs. The chippy smell goes when you rinse it off! It shifts limescale very well.
 
Martin_J said:
So what are your thoughts Jimi...?

Barrettine - Spirits of Salts

I can get this in our local Mr Cheap store at £2.99 for 500ml... Bottle says contains Hidrochloric Acid 32% UN1789

What are thoughts then on using lots of bicarbonate of soda to neutralise it afterwards..?
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In reacting with the largely carbonate salts deposited in the toilet it will neutralise itself, becoming calcium chloride, CO2 and water.

Jonathan, how long did you leave it, and at what concentration? I have been dosing my various toilets for years with HCl and never saw any swelling. That's with the acid available throughout Europe, as I said above mostly 20% max but always diluted anyway with some water already in the toilet.
 
The problem with using acid is a takes a lot of acid if there is build up of calcium. It's quicker and cheaper to take the hose off and beat it on a hard surface. We do dose the loo frequently with white vinegar but it won't stop the build up much.
 
Vyv,

The debate started here because someone cleaned their toilet with vinegar and left it soaking overnight. Subsequently the flap/diaphragm at the base of the pump wrinkled and obviously would not pump out as the flap needs to be flat to make a seal. Now I'm assuming it was cheap, or cleaning, vinegar and they had a decent build up of scale in the pipes - hence the long soak time. I had a spare diaphragm (and lots of printing blanket) so I soaked it for a couple of hours in neat concentrated HCl, (I think as someone has mentioned around 33%) and achieved a similar effect, actually not quite as wrinkly - but it certainly would not have formed a seal. Vinegar is a pretty weak acid and is acetic? but overnight is quite long.

Toilets have a number of seals, between the porcelain and plastic components etc, these will not be as affected, if affected at all, as their exposure to any acid is minimal, just an edge. The diaphragm will be fully exposed on both sides to acid (and they might be made from different polymers to the other seals (as they need different characterisitcs (they both seal and need to flex every time the toilet is used)). The diaphragm is only an issue on manual toilets, electric ones have an impellor/macerator which is much more amenable to acid cleaning.

I suspect if you are acid treating regularly, but only for 5 minutes, then it might be OK but scale usually takes longer than 5 minutes to dissolve, - maybe scale comes in different forms?

For rubber pipes I prefer the physical removal of any scale, we get scale on our engine sea water intake upto the heat exchanger. And we simply remove and flagellate or crush. You must remove the hoses or the scale gets into the impellor or heat exchanger and will cause more/different problems. We have used acid to remove the scale on the exhaust elbow but have found this can only be done once (as despite the theory the conc acid also destroys the cast steel, probably flaws in the casting). Maybe exhaust elbows keep cleaner if they are stainless? At a recent Oz boat show here someone was selling stainless elbows and suggested they might cost A$250 vs A$400 for the equivalent cast steel Volvo version.

Printing blankets, if you can get offcuts or 'decent' old ones, have a myriad of uses. They are not for hot applications. Primarily as gaskets and seals but also as replacement skirts for saildrives, where the saildrive passes through the hull (not the circular one on the interior but the cosmetic one that is flush with the hull outer). Printing blankets are multi layer 'rubber' and 'fabric' sandwiches (5 or 7 layers), the fabric giving strength and the rubber compressibility.

Jonathan
 
flobbergob said:
I normally fire a time expired flare round the system. Soon shifts the crud and if you do it on a 3 monthly basis you don't even have to flush between uses. You can clear it by firing either way, down into the pan or up via the outlet through hull fitting. If you use the latter method, make sure no ones sitting on the loo first, i forgot to do this once which is why SWMBO now walks with a pronounced limp.

Cheers, Brian.
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can i have some of what your smoking?
 
I have never found any benefit in leaving acid in the toilet for more than five minutes. The reaction is evident from emissions of CO2 and its completion is easy to assess.

I don't have the link to my rubber-chemicals website at present but I am fairly sure that acetic acid has a greater effect than dilute hydrochloric on the seal materials in question. But since vinegar contains such a small concentration, I think about 2%, it is close to useless anyway.

No idea what caused your wrinkling but soaking overnight in concentrated acid is considerably different from the actions of most liveaboards. Who wants to wait overnight to use the toilet?
 
Neat Hydrochloric?-remember it did a good job stripping dirt of old pennies in the school chemistry lab-one drip!and if you didnt wash it off tended to finish off the coppy penny!
 
We have been doing it for years. we use the stuff they sell throughout europe aqua forte but its toilet cleaner. Incidentally we replaced one of our Jabsco units with an electric alternative this year. I had a good look at the innerds of the old unit and pipework and there appeared to be no ill effects.
 
I have been using HCL in my toilets for 15 years, never replaced a pipe in that time, replaced some impellors, but only due to normal wear and tear, as I type my toilets are being dosed, they will be pumpoed through in a few minutes.
The secret I believe is a long flush, to get all effluent out of the pipes, so you dont get the reaction and build up due to hard/sea water and Urine.
 
Troubadour said:
Round here I've tried Tesco, Aldi, Lidl, ASDA, everyone I can think of, and can only find white vinegar in little bottles that undoubtedly work out dearer than B&Q brick cleaner relative to the potency! Gallon cans of spiced brown pickling vinegar yes, but no clear. Am I missing a bulk source somewhere obvious?
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There's this one http://www.summernaturals.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=341 - or I would imagine a catering cash and carry or suppliers would have 5L containers as well. This lot regard 1,000 litres as a small amount. I gave a beautician friend a lift to her suppliers to pick up some stuff and they had 5L containers of it there too - in fact they had all sorts of interesting stuff in Hydrogen Peroxide in bulk according to the catalogue :eek:
 
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