Fleming 58 video

[Piers]

Wow. I knew Tony had extricated himself from the company but I didnt know he had sold out completely and that things had gone downhill at the factory. Yes I agree on Nordhavn. If I was to buy a D boat I would only be looking at Nordhavns. I dont believe that the likes of Selene or, for example, DeFever are built to the same 'industrial' build quality as the Nordhavn although they may be prettier. I also think that Nordhavns are easier to re-sell on the used market which, for me, is an important issue

Agreed on the Nordhavn. Really strong, really well engineered and holding their prices well. Went o a 64 last year which I thought was huge and then on a 76 which was 'outrageous.' Both had external wing stations to dock both sides of the PH. All we could do was stare.

 

[Zing]

Delete the "almost" . You should do it. My brother just did on aquastar 74, including moving the fins, which you wont need to do because fleming will have located them correctly to begin with (unlike aquastar). Best upgrade you could make - your boat would then be officially perfect. Sleipner 0.7m sq fins on their rack and pinion actuators = £85k all in, give or take. Far far better than the Trac stuff both underway and at anchor

I expect the issue Piers mentioned, that his stabilisation is not as good as he would like is down to the Fleming having smaller fins than he needs. The Fleming being capable of 20+ kts should have the fins sized for a higher speed than the 8kt he normally cruises at, just as P boats will have even smaller fins as they will be designed for the yet higher cruising speeds. It's another one of those boat design compromise problems.

 

[Piers]

I expect the issue Piers mentioned, that his stabilisation is not as good as he would like is down to the Fleming having smaller fins than he needs. The Fleming being capable of 20+ kts should have the fins sized for a higher speed than the 8kt he normally cruises at, just as P boats will have even smaller fins as they will be designed for the yet higher cruising speeds. It's another one of those boat design compromise problems.

The max speed we've ever managed in Play d'eau is 17kts - if that makes a difference. At D speeds, the fins are fine, yet at times quite stretched to cope with a high beam sea.

 

[Portofino]

You cant really make those comparisons because, as I pointed out for my boats, there is a big difference in fuel consumption between 7kts and 9kts and even between 8kts and 9kts. To make a really fair comparison, you would have to compare fuel consumptions for all boats at exactly the same speed

In absolute terms yes ,but in real useage our D speed of what we think our best D speed is is gonna be different not the same .
Eg JFM ,s not gonna go to Corsica 100 Miles with the tolling functionality @ 500 rpm @ 6 knots for 17 hrs .
I,am not gonna engage 1 st click @600 rpm and do 7 . Something knots .
Or do ( as per screen shot ^^ ) 935 rpm and form a tsunami in front of the boat ,
825 feels fine , @ 10 miles / hr so a real life trip to Corsica will be less than 10 hrs in useful daylight and burn 400 L
Excluding any deemed Italian tune up s of course .
Thing is the Nordie @ 6 knots will also take 17 hrs , so some watch planning needed ,plenty of crew and either an early start or late end .
Piers 8 knots @ 1150 rpm will take 12.5 hrs , so a a June day doable in day light .
But then at my P speed I could be there in 3 hours sit twiddling my thumbs , trying to forget its cost me 550 L/ 600 L of diesel .
Buy I can have a late start ,or early and be there for lunch .

I think if you want to spend a lot of time on a boat “boating “ what ever that means then the Spector of sail comes up .
A decent 60 ft Yacht can motor over 6 knots of the Nordie , say 10 and if the wind is right arrive in Corsica faster .
Ok small 30-40 something French built yachts are like caravans / camping etc.

But once over say 55 ft yachts can suddenly become luxurious on a par with mobos
65-70 ft are really nice ,easily sail @ 8 knots ++
90/130 Different world .

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Agreed on the Nordhavn. Really strong, really well engineered and holding their prices well. Went o a 64 last year which I thought was huge and then on a 76 which was 'outrageous.' Both had external wing stations to dock both sides of the PH. All we could do was stare.

Actually the 64 is the one I would have if my wallet could stretch that far. I was really impressed with the 64 at SIBS last year although I still have to get my head around the idea of a single engine on such a monster of a boat!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I think if you want to spend a lot of time on a boat “boating “ what ever that means then the Spector of sail comes up .
A decent 60 ft Yacht can motor over 6 knots of the Nordie , say 10 and if the wind is right arrive in Corsica faster .
Ok small 30-40 something yachts are like caravans / camping etc.
But once over say 55 ft yachts suddenly become luxurious on a par with mobs .
65-70 ft are really nice ,
90/130 Different world .

Aaargh wash your mouth out

 

[Piers]

Actually the 64 is the one I would have if my wallet could stretch that far. I was really impressed with the 64 at SIBS last year although I still have to get my head around the idea of a single engine on such a monster of a boat!

In Camaret, a 64 came into the marina through that narrow entrance. A masterful bit of driving. You should have seen the yachts moving and diving for cover. Loved it!

 

[Zing]

An interesting fact is that we tried same speed cruising on one engine and ended up with a greater fuel burn. Thinking about it, we can only put it down to the offset (some 5 degrees) due to the assymetric effect of operating on one engine; the rudder being offset increasing the drag and the drag effect of the dead engine's prop.

There is a fuel consumption figure quoted for the Selene 58 in the article below of 14.3lt/hr at 7.95kt. That boat is really close in weight and DWL to the Fleming 58, which being a good bit heavier than yours ought to have a worse consumption than your boat. I expect some of the improvement in economy is down to the 1 engine design. I am surprised at the difference though, maybe the hull shape? I don't know.

I looked at the figures for the Nordhavn 57 at 8kt also and they quote 15lt at 8kt. That boat is an older design, the same displacement and a few feet shorter DWL than the Selene. So 14 to 15lt/hr looks to be about right for a D boat of this displacement at 8kt.

http://www.nordhavn.com/glance/archived_brochures/57.pdf
http://www.selenetrawlers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/84/press/2011-PassageMaker.pdf

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

In Camaret, a 64 came into the marina through that narrow entrance. A masterful bit of driving. You should have seen the yachts moving and diving for cover. Loved it!

I would have liked to have seen that

 

[Piers]

I would have liked to have seen that

He wasn't going to take prisoners. It looked, to coin an American phrase, awesome.

 

[Portofino]

Aaargh wash your mouth out

Yes how silly , it’s just the sub 10 knot thing .
Bigger ones can come with tender garages and decent outside space these days .
But and it’s a big but it’s the 10 -12 hrs at an angle ,tipped up that would irk us after a mo bo,
Also the faster ones 60 ft + have bulb keels ,which means every time you approach a new to you anchorage — not fun .
You are right Nah

 

[Portofino]

Mike ,if Zings ^^ numbers are correct ,then 15 L / hr for a similar size D boat to your F 63 means it’s hardly worth changing .
Cost to change etc and the extra fuel usage of the F 63 over the Nordie 63 @ D .
Not that any € €€ spend with boats ever makes any sense anyhow
Main motivation to change I suspect like cars is boredom or an itch for a mini project , then go for it :encouragement:

 

[scubaman]

Personally I admire the trawlers as much as the next man and indeed once paid a deposit on a Fleming 53 and seriously considered a Selene 43, but purely from a personal point of view feel that in terms of exterior living spaces they are too big a compromise (bar the Fleming!).

The Selene hardly had a flat surface up top and the cockpit wasn't very cosy. Looking at pics of Nordhavns, it seems to be a somewhat similar story. Swift Trawlers and indeed yachts in my view suffer from the same.

I've also looked around at what alternatives there are but in terms of liveability, the cockpit and fly of a 'traditional' mobo are pretty hard to beat.

I fully appreciate that people value different things on boats and also that my limited experience is from slightly smaller boats than discussed here, so all very much IMHO .

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Mike ,if Zings ^^ numbers are correct ,then 15 L / hr for a similar size D boat to your F 63 means it’s hardly worth changing .
Cost to change etc and the extra fuel usage of the F 63 over the Nordie 63 @ D .
Not that any € €€ spend with boats ever makes any sense anyhow
Main motivation to change I suspect like cars is boredom or an itch for a mini project , then go for it :encouragement:

Its not about the fuel consumption. Frankly 15lph or 25lph at D speeds makes no difference when there other much bigger costs of boating to consider such as depreciation, repairs etc. The reason I am thinking about changing my boat is that I'm thinking about semi retirement soon and doing much more boating. So the consideration is whether I carry on with the existing Ferretti 630 (which I like very much and has been an excellent boat) and risk having major repair costs/downtime as it gets older or get a newer boat which has (hopefully) fewer potential reliability issues. There is also the consideration whether a P boat like the Ferretti is the most comfortable boat for mainly D speed cruising, possibly in adverse sea conditions. Yes I know that a large dollop of man maths comes into these considerations but then if any of us had any sense, we would never buy a floating money pit like a motor boat in the first place

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Personally I admire the trawlers as much as the next man and indeed once paid a deposit on a Fleming 53 and seriously considered a Selene 43, but purely from a personal point of view feel that in terms of exterior living spaces they are too big a compromise (bar the Fleming!).

The Selene hardly had a flat surface up top and the cockpit wasn't very cosy. Looking at pics of Nordhavns, it seems to be a somewhat similar story. Swift Trawlers and indeed yachts in my view suffer from the same.

I've also looked around at what alternatives there are but in terms of liveability, the cockpit and fly of a 'traditional' mobo are pretty hard to beat.

Yes that is precisely the compromise I am considering. Do I want to effectively downsize to gain a bit more seaworthiness? And then there is the other factor that Mapism has pointed out. Many SD or D boats are, length for length, considerably more expensive than P boats, new or secondhand, so you get a lot more bang for your buck with a P boat.

 

[Zing]

Mike ,if Zings ^^ numbers are correct ,then 15 L / hr for a similar size D boat to your F 63 means it’s hardly worth changing .
Cost to change etc and the extra fuel usage of the F 63 over the Nordie 63 @ D .
Not that any € €€ spend with boats ever makes any sense anyhow
Main motivation to change I suspect like cars is boredom or an itch for a mini project , then go for it :encouragement:

Would this suggestion be viable? I wonder if running large engines at idle more or less, continuously for days, would be damaging for the engines?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Would this suggestion be viable? I wonder if running large engines at idle more or less, continuously for days, would be damaging for the engines?

Well that is a whole different thread! FWIW I've been told by an experienced MAN engineer that the engines on my boat need to be put under load (ie planing) on average about 20 mins of every hour

 

[Piers]

Well that is a whole different thread! FWIW I've been told by an experienced MAN engineer that the engines on my boat need to be put under load (ie planing) on average about 20 mins of every hour

When I did the 3 day technical course on the Cummins engines in Play d'eau, I was told that running at low rpm was not an issue since the oil thermostats would keep the oil at working temperature. Hence, no bore glazing.

 

[Portofino]

Its not about the fuel consumption. Frankly 15lph or 25lph at D speeds makes no difference when there other much bigger costs of boating to consider such as depreciation, repairs etc. The reason I am thinking about changing my boat is that I'm thinking about semi retirement soon and doing much more boating. So the consideration is whether I carry on with the existing Ferretti 630 (which I like very much and has been an excellent boat) and risk having major repair costs/downtime as it gets older or get a newer boat which has (hopefully) fewer potential reliability issues. There is also the consideration whether a P boat like the Ferretti is the most comfortable boat for mainly D speed cruising, possibly in adverse sea conditions. Yes I know that a large dollop of man maths comes into these considerations but then if any of us had any sense, we would never buy a floating money pit like a motor boat in the first place

How’s your gyro ? ,it must go a long way to to making D speeds more comfortable on long runs .
Not done a lot of hrs this Y ( recovery from winter snowboarding injury ) only 60 but I can,t remember any ot those being roll y to such an extent where I figured a gyro would help .
Odd occasion we were at the mercy of wash ,but just up anchor and moved - great excuse to go and play more .

You fuel curve is flat btw for range / speed — so your hull is an ideal planning boat .
I would try a long trip or two in it when you semi retire .Then make a decision if suits .

I,am revving Mrs PF up for a trip to Corfu in my boat , she’s not keen .

 

[Zing]

Well that is a whole different thread! FWIW I've been told by an experienced MAN engineer that the engines on my boat need to be put under load (ie planing) on average about 20 mins of every hour

I was told by the people I buy my parts from (Golden Arrow) that my 6lt Perkins needs running at high power about 10 minutes every 4 hours or so. Similar, but different advice. It is used on my sailing boat at very low power a lot. (I'm looking closely at D and SD motor yachts).