Fleming 58 video

[Piers]

Sorry Piers have you got any fuel burn data .

Your normal D speed and if poss and @1800 ,for our P comparison ?

just so we can get a handle on this eco point .

I know JFM ^^ said he could troll at 500 rpm ,for 6 knots buts that’s not realistic .
As my post above D for me is about 825rpm ( not 935 as screen shot ^^ ) — I burn 40 L/ h at about 9 point something knots or 10 miles / hr ave .

In haste during a meeting (!) http://www.playdeau.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/image002.jpg

As I said, in practice, Play d'eau achieves just over 1.7nm/UK gallon at 1150 rpm giving approx 8 kts.

Piers

 

[MapisM]

Specs are here: http://www.flemingyachts.com/models.html

Yup, that's where I noticed the (big!) beam difference between the 55 and the 58... :encouragement:

PS: as an aside, doesn't the black water tank capacity sound silly, in the 65...

 

[Piers]

Yup, that's where I noticed the (big!) beam difference between the 55 and the 58... :encouragement:

If i could choose, it would be between a Fleming 58 or a Nordhavn 63 (or maybe a bit bigger....)

 

[MapisM]

If i could choose, it would be between a Fleming 58 or a Nordhavn 63 (or maybe a bit bigger....)

Fwiw, I'd have the first in a heartbeat, for anything but ocean crossings.
The 63 was meant as a replacement of the glorious 62, but imho she doesn't hold a candle to her.

 

[Piers]

Fwiw, I'd have the first in a heartbeat, for anything but ocean crossings.
The 63 was meant as a replacement of the glorious 62, but imho she doesn't hold a candle to her.

...hence my words 'or a bit bigger.'

 

[Portofino]

Sorry L, I don't know why, but I missed your post #81 before.

Anyhow, also with those Itama 55 numbers (which btw are related to the more powerful version of the V12 which Deleted User has on his F630, though afaik it`s exactly the same engine with just a different software) you mixed up single with total: at 1800rpm, the total is 135+138 = 273.
This is the number to compare with Deleted User 278, your 180, and my 156.

And I don't see any major inconsistencies in them, because:
- the IT55 is obviously smaller than the F630, but burning the same amount of fuel and making 5 knots more is something that doesn't hurt my mental sanity check, fwiw.
- your boat is also smaller than mine, but even if the two engines are more different than the two previous V12 (yours being L6 and mine V8), their output is actually similar (700 vs. 800). And again, your boat makes 5 more knots at the same rpm. So, essentially, what your 180 and my 156 tell us is that your engines are running at a higher load than mine, at 1800rpm. Not something I would have expected, but again, not a difference that strikes me as necessarily wrong either...

Thx P
Great analysis. Remember my boat is going a bit faster too @ 1800rpm ,all 3 are running @ different speeds .

I just picked 1800 rpm as an easy running number for the engines - @ a typical P speed to help get a handle on what we should be burning compared to a Nordie at D or Fleming at D or SD or what ever .
As said D for me is 40 L / hr , compared to TH,s 10 , but I do 9 knots he does 6 , tbo 6 is too slow for me .


“Easy “ ( 1800rpm ) in terms of my WOT is only 2200 ish ( longer stroke ) you guys are 2300 ish , so I guess @ 1800 I,am nearer WOT then you guys .?
When you read boat ( new boats ) tests etc , some guys run about at or a bit over 2000 say 2100 etc with MAN ,s
Considering the age of our engines ,and the consumption ,just does not feel right to me in terms of longevity.

My MAN engineer told me sit them on 1800 rpm or lower for cruising .

For the SoF Mob that’s Y.E.S - Yacht ,Engine .Service .

 

[MapisM]

“Easy “ ( 1800rpm ) in terms of my WOT is only 2200 ish ( longer stroke ) you guys are 2300 ish , so I guess @ 1800 I,am nearer WOT then you guys .?

Correct. I'm aware that the 6L is rated for 2200rpm, as opposed to 2300 of the V engines, but I didn't think of it in my previous reply.
That further justifies the 180 vs. 156 lph comparison, I reckon. :encouragement:

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Fwiw, I'd have the first in a heartbeat, for anything but ocean crossings.
The 63 was meant as a replacement of the glorious 62, but imho she doesn't hold a candle to her.

Out of interest, P, why do you say that? As far as I understand, the 63 was not so much a replacement for the 62 as an alternative to the 55/60 for customers who were looking for a similar aft pilot house arrangement to the 62. Certainly, Nordhavn make no secret of the fact that it is based on the 55/60 hull. I suspect that if Nordhavn tried to make a real replacement for the 62, which I agree was a great boat, the cost would be prohibitive and put it into the same territory as the 64

To be honest I quite like the 63. The saloon is certainly roomier than the 55/60 and I assume that the aft pilot house position would be a more comfortable place to helm from compared to the more forward pilot house of the 55/60. Of course the lack of a flybridge makes it a non starter for me

 

[Piers]

Out of interest, P, why do you say that? As far as I understand, the 63 was not so much a replacement for the 62 as an alternative to the 55/60 for customers who were looking for a similar aft pilot house arrangement to the 62. Certainly, Nordhavn make no secret of the fact that it is based on the 55/60 hull. I suspect that if Nordhavn tried to make a real replacement for the 62, which I agree was a great boat, the cost would be prohibitive and put it into the same territory as the 64

To be honest I quite like the 63. The saloon is certainly roomier than the 55/60 and I assume that the aft pilot house position would be a more comfortable place to helm from compared to the more forward pilot house of the 55/60. Of course the lack of a flybridge makes it a non starter for me

From memory, wasn't the 63 introduced specifically as the replacement for the 62?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

For the SoF Mob that’s Y.E.S - Yacht ,Engine .Service .

Was it YES that went out of business a few months ago or another MAN agent?

 

[MapisM]

Out of interest, P, why do you say that?

LOL, there's a somewhat long story, behind the reason.
Rushing out atm, will follow up asap!

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

From memory, wasn't the 63 introduced specifically as the replacement for the 62?

Not AFAIK. The story I heard was that Nordhavn had a customer who was looking for a similar style of boat to the 62 and they came up with a modified version of the 60 which they called the 63. I dont believe that Nordhavn have ever advertised it as a direct replacement for the 62 which is a larger, heavier boat and, I believe, with the option of a bulbous bow which again AFAIK is not an option on the 63

 

[Piers]

Not AFAIK. The story I heard was that Nordhavn had a customer who was looking for a similar style of boat to the 62 and they came up with a modified version of the 60 which they called the 63. I dont believe that Nordhavn have ever advertised it as a direct replacement for the 62 which is a larger, heavier boat and, I believe, with the option of a bulbous bow which again AFAIK is not an option on the 63

OK. I've always loved the look of the 62 and keep looking at brokerage....

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

OK. I've always loved the look of the 62 and keep looking at brokerage....

Out of interest Piers do you cruise your Fleming 55 at D speeds mostly and what do you think that a Nordhavn would give you at D speeds that you dont currently get with the 55?

The reason I ask is that I've started thinking about our next boat. Our intention is to cruise further than just around the Med, maybe coming back north and doing some cruising around the UK again. I really cant make my mind up whether to go for another P boat or to consider a SD boat like the Fleming or even a D boat like the Nordhavn.

 

[Portofino]

Ok just roughly taking some numbers off Piers post #101 for his boat
Converting to L/ r for comparability.
His D speed @8 knots + something ? I think is arround 20 L/ r ——— whole boat .
1800 rpm gives 11 knots —— 77 L/h
His Wot is 2800 rpm is as a comparison to our MAN ish 1800 rpm cruise I took 2300 rpm on his graph .
2300 rpm give 15 knots ish ——- burns 154 L/ r .

So really compared to TH the Fleming is burning 2 x the fuel .-in real world use .@ D
Nordie 10 L/ h @ 6 knots
Fleming 20 L/h @ 8 knots that’s 25 % quick er
Itama 42 —- 40 L/ h @ 9 knots 33 % quicker than the Nordie
Itama 55 40 L/ h @9 knots
F 63 40 L/ h @ 9 knots
DP 56 ———34 some L/ h @ 8. Something ? knots — est extrapolation? 800 rpm
Sq 78 .?.?

Range is just a factor of tankage .

So really us P boys can’t really argue our fuel burn @ our respective sensible D speeds (all below 1000 but above tickover )are equal to the D and SD guys ,in real world useage .

 

[Piers]

Out of interest Piers do you cruise your Fleming 55 at D speeds mostly and what do you think that a Nordhavn would give you at D speeds that you dont currently get with the 55?

The reason I ask is that I've started thinking about our next boat. Our intention is to cruise further than just around the Med, maybe coming back north and doing some cruising around the UK again. I really cant make my mind up whether to go for another P boat or to consider a SD boat like the Fleming or even a D boat like the Nordhavn.

It's very, very, rare that we go over D speeds. We've grown to love cruising with the seas and not against them. So why might we look at a Nordhavn? Internal space, single engine and the engineering competence speak more to us than the Fleming's beautiful looks. But more than that, since Tony Fleming sold out, the manufacturer's customer service has collapsed. Dealer service remains excellent but the back-up from the main company has gone and appears uncaring. I can say this from our own experience - and cost. So time to try another make, and Nordhavn seems to us to tick all the boxes.

 

[Portofino]

Was it YES that went out of business a few months ago or another MAN agent?

I used YES mid Sept early Oct — still trading
Actually there quote come in a lot lower in labour and parts prices than the one with the shop in Antibes .
It was to change a leaky and thus corroded intermediate exhaust gasket .Inc taking the manifold to the workshop for a clean / grind overnight .Took 3 guys in the engine room 2 days - well that’s French days
Start @ 10 big lunch finish @ 4 etc — lazy sods no wonder there economy is up 8hit creak !
Any how fixed price .
There’s a zillion gaskets and special tools + it’s takes two to man handle some parts .
Great job ,and service and price .speak good EN
They also gave them a check over and suggested / quoted for some winter work — if I want .

Sorry for the thread drift guys

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

So really compared to TH the Fleming is burning 2 x the fuel .-in real world use .@ D
Nordie 10 L/ h @ 6 knots
Fleming 20 L/h @ 8 knots that’s 25 % quick er
Itama 42 —- 40 L/ h @ 9 knots 33 % quicker than the Nordie
Itama 55 40 L/ h @9 knots
F 63 40 L/ h @ 9 knots
DP 56 ———34 some L/ h @ 8. Something ? knots — est extrapolation? 800 rpm
Sq 78 .?.?

You cant really make those comparisons because, as I pointed out for my boats, there is a big difference in fuel consumption between 7kts and 9kts and even between 8kts and 9kts. To make a really fair comparison, you would have to compare fuel consumptions for all boats at exactly the same speed

 

[Piers]

You cant really make those comparisons because, as I pointed out for my boats, there is a big difference in fuel consumption between 7kts and 9kts and even between 8kts and 9kts. To make a really fair comparison, you would have to compare fuel consumptions for all boats at exactly the same speed

An interesting fact is that we tried same speed cruising on one engine and ended up with a greater fuel burn. Thinking about it, we can only put it down to the offset (some 5 degrees) due to the assymetric effect of operating on one engine; the rudder being offset increasing the drag and the drag effect of the dead engine's prop.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

It's very, very, rare that we go over D speeds. We've grown to love cruising with the seas and not against them. So why might we look at a Nordhavn? Internal space, single engine and the engineering competence speak more to us than the Fleming's beautiful looks. But more than that, since Tony Fleming sold out, the manufacturer's customer service has collapsed. Dealer service remains excellent but the back-up from the main company has gone and appears uncaring. I can say this from our own experience - and cost. So time to try another make, and Nordhavn seems to us to tick all the boxes.

Wow. I knew Tony had extricated himself from the company but I didnt know he had sold out completely and that things had gone downhill at the factory. Yes I agree on Nordhavn. If I was to buy a D boat I would only be looking at Nordhavns. I dont believe that the likes of Selene or, for example, DeFever are built to the same 'industrial' build quality as the Nordhavn although they may be prettier. I also think that Nordhavns are easier to re-sell on the used market which, for me, is an important issue