Seastoke
Well-Known Member
When do you need to have off shore instead of inshore
Flares
- Thread starter Seastoke
- Start date
Momac
Well-Known Member
Why do you need any flares?
RYA position
Modern technology (EPIRB, PLB, VHF DSC, AIS, EVDS and SART) is now able to provide reliable, accurate and timely alerting and location methods without the need for pyrotechnic signals. Modern electronic distress, alerting and locating devices are now readily available at an affordable price and their use avoids the dangers associated with the operation of pyrotechnic flares and difficulties encountered in disposing of time-expired pyrotechnics.
RYA position
Modern technology (EPIRB, PLB, VHF DSC, AIS, EVDS and SART) is now able to provide reliable, accurate and timely alerting and location methods without the need for pyrotechnic signals. Modern electronic distress, alerting and locating devices are now readily available at an affordable price and their use avoids the dangers associated with the operation of pyrotechnic flares and difficulties encountered in disposing of time-expired pyrotechnics.
[2068]
...
The flare manufacturers say 7 miles out is “offshore”, but even the RYA have relegated parachute flares to “Recommended only if no other means of distress alerting is carried”.
Handheld flares and smoke signals are still on the list.
The RYA are saying that a DSC call or EPIRB activation should be the primary alerting mechanisms.
https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollecti...s and Safety/Distress-Alerting-Info-Sheet.pdf
Handheld flares and smoke signals are still on the list.
The RYA are saying that a DSC call or EPIRB activation should be the primary alerting mechanisms.
https://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollecti...s and Safety/Distress-Alerting-Info-Sheet.pdf
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Hurricane
Well-Known Member
I don't think it is anything to do with the RYA.
I wouldn't take any notice of the RYA anyway.
Boats over 45 feet should carry pyrotechnic flares and, in order to avoid any rows with your insurance in the event of a claim, you should carry them.
Against my better judgement though - see the other thread.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Beacause in France not having the correct pack for the boats designated useage or holding on to out of date pyrotechnics ( inc smoke signals etc ) attracts a fine .
You can have as much other stuff as you can carry .
An ERIP , that’s out of date bat / service / test wise also attracts a fine in Fr .
Life rafts are not compulsory for liesure boaters in Fr and free from potential fines as there’s no prescription.
So the answer is depending on where you base your boat , get to know the local prescription for all this stuff and keep the right side of it .Red ensigns maybe will become easy targets post 29/3/19 ..
Interesting to see how our enforcement of immigration ( channel dingy s ) and fishing rights unfolds after Brexit .
And what if any reciprocal action EU countries who feel hard done by our new enforcement measures on those two topics react .
So make sure if you keep a boat in Spain or France , you comply with there ( Ok outdated ) requirement.
Chosen those two as they won,t be happy being excluded from Britain’s fishing area and Spain’s axe grinding over Gib May become acute post Brexit sans deal .
petem
Well-Known Member
Does anyone know if there are any regulations relating to Flares in Spain?
Momac
Well-Known Member
I think an insurance company would be hard pressed to challenge RYA advice.
But point taken regarding the requirements of France.
But point taken regarding the requirements of France.
rubberduck
Well-Known Member
We have parachute flares, handheld battery powered, also DSC, EPIRB, Liferaft (self righting), tender, VHF handeld etc.
kashurst
Well-Known Member
my understanding for Spain, is that if it is British Registered it's a British boat so the local Spanish Safety kit requirements are not enforceable. I have been boarded twice in Spain and all they were concerned about was insurance, ICC and VAT
I carry EPIRB/PLB, 2 x DSC VHF, Phones, lots of lifejackets, a liferaft, a collection of torches and a mirror for signaling
I don't carry flares anymore - too dangerous for the inexperienced. However I rarely venture more than 8 miles off shore
Portofino
Well-Known Member
I think they are .
If they wish .Its just up to now they have not bothered ,but that attitude I suspect will harden after Brexit .
I think you need to read Uncloss 11 and other international agreements. The coastal State can impose whatever conditions it wants on vessels NOT on innocent passage.
Read more at http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...s-boat-safety-regulations#0LDxUDbqswdyyCPX.99
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Portofino
Well-Known Member
Two threads very similar, I would check if there’s any Sp boat safety requirements and advise comply .
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?512901-Odeo-distress-flare-any-good
kashurst
Well-Known Member
at the moment the attempt to apply Spanish regulation to boats not on innocent passage (i.e. staying in the neighbourhood indefinitely) is still under discussion - I shan't panic
if the boat owner is non resident and the boat is foreign flagged Spanish rules don't apply - I checked this out last September in Spain.
On the regs subject there is a rumour in Spain that you now need a certificate to prove that when the boat was serviced the oil, filters etc were disposed of correctly - anyone able to confirm this? I asked in my marina in Spain and they didn't know what I was on about.
if the boat owner is non resident and the boat is foreign flagged Spanish rules don't apply - I checked this out last September in Spain.
On the regs subject there is a rumour in Spain that you now need a certificate to prove that when the boat was serviced the oil, filters etc were disposed of correctly - anyone able to confirm this? I asked in my marina in Spain and they didn't know what I was on about.
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Hurricane
Well-Known Member
Yep on the regs, thats how I understand it in Spain.
For example Spanish registered boats with liferafts have to have them services every year - as British boats, we are able to carry life rafts with longer expiry dates.
Not heard about the oil/filter disposal but it is the kind of thing that they do.
Mind you I don't think that the everyday Spanish guy takes any notice.
Same for black water tanks - most of the Spanish don't pump out - mainly because they don't actually have a black tank.
The oil thing could be easily handled at our marina - all the oil and used filters etc go to a central dump in the boatyard so it would be easy to get a certificate issued at that point.
As I say, not heard of that ---- yet.
Nigelpickin
Well-Known Member
Well I’ve been boarded by Sp - F and Pt many times now and never been asked to demonstrate that I have flares on board, have you Porto’ ?
Portofino
Well-Known Member
3x and like you we did not get into the safety gear as I said “ not bothered “ :encouragement:
The paperwork stage seemed to suffice.
How ever the point I,am trying to make that seems to be flying a mile high over folks heads is .......
“ what if skip “ if they were bothered applying there local safety kit list and date regime?
Partly egged on by the fallout over the fishing grounds / immigrantion rows ( seperate issues ) that are about erupt post Brexit .
They will never officially link those trigger points to “doing over” none related liesure boaters by the letter as actually those laws and there right now to check your safety gear have been in place ages and the EU have not egged on member states to apply them vigorously.Your experience mirrors mine and many others .
But I,am under no illusion the status que will remain post Brexit .
Anything that can be done to show the rest of the EU what will happen if you leave the cult ,they will do .
Each time ,so far one of the first inquisitive questions from them is “ where is your home port “ “ where are you from “ along those lines - in a kinda find out if you are transient or not .
I have witness the book chucked at guy last year .
Fr on Fr .
Maritime police doing routine checks - paperwork. Ins ,reg doc etc , from a rib .4 armed guys .
Hidden by another boat they were alongside- a French flagged rib sped by exceeding the then 8 knots limit in that area.
The police took chase - blue lights / siren etc and he pulled up near us .We were up to then anchored peacefully .
40 min stop .
Rib had 3 family’s maybe 12 pax .
Wrote a ticked out , some raises voices , went through his paperwork , wrote another ticket out , a lot of typical French hand waving and gestures .Then all the seat lockers opened and made to don the life vests . Yup not enough.
Then made a kid don and adult LV and the copper held the scruff of the LV with the kid in and the kid fell out - another ticket .Flares all out and inspected - another ticket so on and so forth , I think you get the picture.
Guys was doing about 40 knots in a 8 zone .
Wound up the police rib escorting the naughty rib away , a lot of ink was used up I was watching it all .
They could have just dealt with the speed issue and quickly gone on there way , but the book came out .
I don’t know whats the basis of all this forum resistance to simply researching local safety requirements, recognising they may be different to RYA or what ever and simply toggling off to the local chandler ( who sells ready made packs ? ) and conforming .
But if you want to wave your red rag ( ensign) in a wave to a bull kinda way - to a Sp ,Pt or Fr maritime officials who’s relatives ( brother cousin etc )fishing business is being decimated post Brexit and his take home pay is less because the Brits are keeping most of the 38 Bn .Then be my guest ,and explain the lack of kit to one of there judges in the morning .
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kashurst
Well-Known Member
If the Guardia Civil in Spain spotted you doing 40Knts in an 8knt limit you would have a big gun in your face.
not surprised in those circumstances the French Police looked for every possible infringement.
RE Brexit I doubt much will change re inspections etc as non resident owners will just re-register to another EU country if needed. Spain's main concern over Brexit is getting its' hands on Gibraltar, not my boat. They want people like us to keep spending.
My only concern about safety kit/inspection is Flares (don't like them aboard) I have everything else to comply anyway. Unless I was doing something stupid as you described above I doubt I would get a fine, just an advisory if everything else was OK.
not surprised in those circumstances the French Police looked for every possible infringement.
RE Brexit I doubt much will change re inspections etc as non resident owners will just re-register to another EU country if needed. Spain's main concern over Brexit is getting its' hands on Gibraltar, not my boat. They want people like us to keep spending.
My only concern about safety kit/inspection is Flares (don't like them aboard) I have everything else to comply anyway. Unless I was doing something stupid as you described above I doubt I would get a fine, just an advisory if everything else was OK.
Portofino
Well-Known Member
Well they will ask to sight your passport then turn and look at the flag while holding the reg doc in the other hand .
Belgium ���� has I believe placed a B passport requirement recently on renewal ( think there reg expires in 5 yrs ) .
So in time Brits allready on the B reg will naturally drop off .
Brussels as I said will behind the scenes make it hard , sone EU directive if it’s not allready there will prevent none EU ( which will be ) from hidding behind / taking up another’s members flag .
Hopefully as I said let them expire in time easiest way in a transition period with maritime police taking a soft touch approach as you suggest with an “ advisory “
But in April with no deal or transition period , then technically some may interpret a Brit with a Brit passport and say a B or Dutch ( online application) flag as illegal .
The nice officer may issue an “ advisory “ and suggest get a red ensign ASAP which you can .
How ever the EU once that rouse is sussed is not gonna let AN Other none member passport holder screw the system using easy to get member state flags .
If Sp closes the border with Gib then any Brit boat none transient in there waters will be done over within the law which includes there safety prescription kitwise .
If they find out a Brits passport holder hiding under a B or Dutch flag and no flares - good luck with that .
At the mo it’s the EU or our membership of the club that’s holding Sp from any Gib ambitions .
T Mays deal ,I’ve read all 484 pages btw , has explicit protection for our EU overseas territories written in, in Gibs case free open boarder as is now etc .
If that’s adopted then Sp is stuck constrained by the EU to keep the status quo Gib wise .
Interesting to see if Sp retaliates in a no deal exit if we enforce our fishing limits etc .
What can they do maritime wise ? And as said Gib looses the luxury of its current EU protection .
Belgium ���� has I believe placed a B passport requirement recently on renewal ( think there reg expires in 5 yrs ) .
So in time Brits allready on the B reg will naturally drop off .
Brussels as I said will behind the scenes make it hard , sone EU directive if it’s not allready there will prevent none EU ( which will be ) from hidding behind / taking up another’s members flag .
Hopefully as I said let them expire in time easiest way in a transition period with maritime police taking a soft touch approach as you suggest with an “ advisory “
But in April with no deal or transition period , then technically some may interpret a Brit with a Brit passport and say a B or Dutch ( online application) flag as illegal .
The nice officer may issue an “ advisory “ and suggest get a red ensign ASAP which you can .
How ever the EU once that rouse is sussed is not gonna let AN Other none member passport holder screw the system using easy to get member state flags .
If Sp closes the border with Gib then any Brit boat none transient in there waters will be done over within the law which includes there safety prescription kitwise .
If they find out a Brits passport holder hiding under a B or Dutch flag and no flares - good luck with that .
At the mo it’s the EU or our membership of the club that’s holding Sp from any Gib ambitions .
T Mays deal ,I’ve read all 484 pages btw , has explicit protection for our EU overseas territories written in, in Gibs case free open boarder as is now etc .
If that’s adopted then Sp is stuck constrained by the EU to keep the status quo Gib wise .
Interesting to see if Sp retaliates in a no deal exit if we enforce our fishing limits etc .
What can they do maritime wise ? And as said Gib looses the luxury of its current EU protection .
Nigelpickin
Well-Known Member
No resistance, I carry flares - just saying that I’ve never been asked more than ‘have
You any fire arms’ and ‘where are you going to’ - I was just interested to hear if you’d had a different experience.
I think a key factor in terms of the shape of med boating for UK registered / flagged boats could well see imigration and customs control away from the dockside in the customs office and not the marina, meaning that you are very unlikely to be boarded unless you are being pulled as you will ‘exist’ on the system....that’s how it works over here and it’s effective.
Hurricane
Well-Known Member
It isn't a resistance to conforming.
Just the concern about carrying these dangerous devices on board.
As I said, we DO carry them but I don't think it is necessary.
And we also carry the very good alternatives so we have it covered.
BruceK
Well-Known Member
Out of interest. If you do indeed have both pyro flares and new laser flares, but as the law insisted you had pyro flares onboard should you fail to use those flares given the opportunity and instead used the laser flares in an emergency could you be held to book?
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