flare disposal (again)

winsbury

winsbury

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The old chestnut of flare disposal has unexpectedly reared its ugly head ( jump to the last paragraph for the short version ) ...

I've found some old flares ( exp 2003 ) among the junk that came with the boat and am extremely concerned they should be disposed of safely and urgently - I didnt buy them or have any idea of their history though they are visually undamaged I have no where to store them safely plus I live in the Midlands where there are no MCA facilities or chandlers that could assist and there is no local method to disable them safely that I'm aware of.

Local Police dont want to know, nor does the council waste disposal site, none of the chandlers Ive contacted will help unless I want to buy an equivalent amount of pyro from them ( which I dont ) MCA Solent cant help during the weekends due to staff restrictions which would mean taking a day off work to drive 260 miles round trip with out of date pyro in the car for MCA to assist which seems daft in the extreme.

The RYA recommendations say that I am responsible for disposing of them but I cant use, store, dump , sell or let them off ( not that I would want to risk any of those.) The only option I can think of is to pay one of the lifeboat servicing companies a small fortune to collect and dispose of them - which hardly seems fair since all I'm trying to do is ensure no-one is put at risk. It begs the question as to what happens if a less conscientious person dumps were to dump them under a bush hoping no kids happen along and blow themselves up in the intervening period before the various Gov agencies decided whose responsibility it is to deal with the hazard (don't worry, I have NO intention of being so stupid.)

I'll be in going to the South coast only on occasional weekends so if anyone has any advice how to store them safely until then and/or where to take them that will definitely dispose of them for me and ideally wont cost a fortune (please don't say Solent MCA as their arrangements are impractical at present) I would be very grateful of the advice.
 
I almost hesitate to suggest this but I can't help wondering about simply walking into the local nick, plonking them on the counter saying "just found these down at the park mate" and walking out again

It goes against my usually law abiding nature but OTOH this disposal situation is becoming well nigh impossible
 
If you are concerned about storing them until you find a home for them, keep them in a bucket of water. Standard procedure at our CG station before all the current stuff came in.
 
Okay I have a couple of solutions after doing more research:

1. Survitec in Southampton ( and I presume their other sites around the UK will offer a similar service ) will dispose of them for £1.40 per rocket flare and £0.91 per red flare which seems more than fair to me. They also will sell new ones singly but need to be ordered in advance but its not a requirement to purchase more to get the old one taken care of. The only problem with this solution is they are not open weekends.

2. Marine Superstore in Port Solent are open on Saturdays 8am-8pm and offer a take back service for people buying new flares. Details are on their website: http://www.marinesuperstore.com/item/FLARES/pains-wessex-flare-packs-collection-in-store-only . The chap I spoke to didn't mind if it wasnt a 1:1 replacement, ie I could buy an inshore pack even though returning the equivalent of a coastal pack.
 
On your next trip around the Solent go up to Newport on the Island. The police station there will accept them all year round, no charge.
 
I spoke to a Sergeant in my county's Police Firearms Unit, who advised that they could take time-expired flares as they had the secure storage and means of disposal. He stressed that 'ordinary' police stations did not have such facilities and - if they took the things at all - would only be able to post them on.

He invited me to drop them in when I was passing, but to telephone before hand just in case they were 'busy with other matters'....:rolleyes:

You could try the same route.
 
following the Capel Curig day ( Flare practice as well as SI training amongst other things). I followed the same pattern. Phoned CG to advise them that I was I was letting off old parachute and hand flares well inland. Phoned again to advise them of the finish.

They sounded pleased to be informed.
 
KellysEye said:
>Local Police dont want to know

Large police stations will take them they have lead lined boxes for explosives, call your county police headquarters.
Click to expand...

That's how I got rid of some. You need to go to the regional headquarters, though. In my case it couldn't have been easier - my neighbours were police officers, and they very kindly took them in for me. But it would have been fine if I'd walked in off the street.

I wouldn't be too concerned about safety; they aren't that old, and the expiry date is a) very conservative and b) more to do with colour intensity, failure of the ignition mechanism and so on than with instability of the explosives. They may fail to work, or burn a paler colour than they should, but they aren't likely to explode if dropped or anything.
 
Cymrogwyllt said:
following the Capel Curig day ( Flare practice as well as SI training amongst other things). I followed the same pattern. Phoned CG to advise them that I was I was letting off old parachute and hand flares well inland. Phoned again to advise them of the finish.

They sounded pleased to be informed.
Click to expand...

That's a bit irresponsible of the CG. It is actually illegal to let off distress flares anywhere, even well away from navigable water. And it's dangerous to let off parachute flares inland; they are still burning when they land.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
That's a bit irresponsible of the CG. It is actually illegal to let off distress flares anywhere, even well away from navigable water. And it's dangerous to let off parachute flares inland; they are still burning when they land.
Click to expand...

Please quote legislation.
You will not find any legislation other than discharging flares in a stadium or acts by skippers of vessels.
You have to get other legislation to fit. i.e. wasting police time.
In your example of burning on land you may get Arson to fit.
It keeps coming up that it's illegal. It isn't.
 
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> but they aren't likely to explode if dropped or anything.

Out of interest about 20 cruisers fired expired flares under the supervision of the Marine police in Lagos, Portugal, one rocket flare exploded in one cruiser's hand, all of us were wearing gloves so he wasn't burnt. Another rocket flare went off horizontally fortunately not aiming at us. So my advice would be dispose of flares don't fire them, I agree they won't explode if dropped. One other thing to note is when I was skydiving we used the big Pains Wessex orange flares strapped to an ankle when doing demo jumps, one in date flare didn't fire.
 
Talulah said:
Please quote legislation.
You will not find any legislation other than discharging flares in a stadium or acts by skippers of vessels.
You have to get other legislation to fit. i.e. wasting police time.
In your example of burning on land you may get Arson to fit.
It keeps coming up that it's illegal. It isn't.
Click to expand...

The general situation with explosive devices is that unless explicitly permitted (by license or for specific purposes covered by legislation), they are illegal (various Explosives Acts). Letting off a distress flare except in an emergency situation is not covered by the permissions given in legislation, and is therefore illegal.

I gather permission to use distress flares is covered specifically by the Merchant Shipping Act; life's too short to read it through from end to end. However, they AREN'T covered by the Firework Act - not being to the right BS and not being designed for entertainment - so there is no permission granted there. Letting off fireworks is only permitted for fireworks designed to a particular standard and for a particular purpose; letting off distress flares is only permitted for flares appropriately designed and in a distress situation. In general it is illegal to let off explosive devices without explicit licensing or legislative permission. Therefore, it is illegal to let off flares except in an emergency situation. Naturally, the authorities may cast a blind eye for purposes such as training.

Certainly the police think it's illegal - I was proposing to let some off in my garden, mentioned it to my neighbours (police officers as mentioned above) and they told me it was illegal. I didn't think to ask them at the time what legislation covered it, but I'm pretty sure they could have told me. So even if it isn't, you might end up with a difficult situation! And my neighbours were both at a supervisory level in the police, not ordinary constables. They were also good neighbours, not officious or heavy about legal matters at all.

Finally, while hand-held flares might be safe enough to discharge inland, parachute flares definitely aren't. I don't want to be responsible for burning a neighbour's house down, or (where I live) setting acres of crops on fire. And if I did, I am quite sure that the police would find something to charge me with, and they'd be quite right too.
 
AntarcticPilot said:
... I am quite sure that the police would find something to charge me with
Click to expand...
I'm sure they will even try to use acts of terrorism.
However, your statements make a lot of assumptions and this is why I would like to read the specific piece of legislation. Not directed at you personally but I keep seeing that discharging is 'illegal' but I have yet to find out what someone would be charged with.
Whenever I have asked someone to provide specifics they have always backed off.

Police thinking stuff is illegal is not sufficient.

The below link relates to explosives legislation.
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/explosives/#a03
 
Last edited:
AntarcticPilot said:
The general situation with explosive devices is that unless explicitly permitted (by license or for specific purposes covered by legislation), they are illegal (various Explosives Acts).
Click to expand...

Surely a hand flare is not explosive. I'd certainly be rather upset if it exploded while I was holding it!

I'm not even sure that a rocket flare is explosive, though obviously it has the potential to become so if confined or damaged. There's no explosion to launch it, and since they land intact and burning (a good reason not to launch them on land in itself!) they clearly don't explode in flight either. I guess it depends how those acts define "explosive".

Pete
 
prv said:
Surely a hand flare is not explosive. I'd certainly be rather upset if it exploded while I was holding it!

I'm not even sure that a rocket flare is explosive, though obviously it has the potential to become so if confined or damaged. There's no explosion to launch it, and since they land intact and burning (a good reason not to launch them on land in itself!) they clearly don't explode in flight either. I guess it depends how those acts define "explosive".

Pete
Click to expand...

Explosives aren't necessarily things that explode under normal conditions. Pyrotechnics use explosive mixtures to burn - that is, they use mixtures that contain both fuel and oxidizer. Under the wrong conditions, they can explode - of course, they are carefully designed not to! But put a flare in a steel pipe, arrange a means of setting it off and seal the ends, and you'd have a pretty good pipe-bomb, I reckon. Not that I intend to experiment with it!
 
Getting back on topic, I had accumulated about 25 out of date flares, so I contacted my local council (Harrow) to see if I could take them to the local waste/recycling site. They advised that this wasn't possible, but said that I could take them to a site in the adjacent borough that had suitable facilities. On arrival at the site I spoke (as advised) to the person in the office who said that they couldn't take them as they were dangerous waste; however, when I got onto the site proper (I had some oil to dispose of as well), the supervisor there was more than happy to take them - although he didn't sound to sure on what they would do with them. If I were the OP I would be tempted to go to their local site and speak directly to one of the workers there.

Neil
 
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