Flaming Flares

[jerrytug]

REALLY???? Jeez! Remind me never to moor next to you <kaboom>

Ok, but that's a revealing reaction. Although you use rather jokey language, you are expressing a personal worry about the destructive potential of distress pyros.

Erbas, they don't go 'kaboom' when they are together, there is no ' critical mass' or anything like it.

In fact they don't 'go kaboom' at all, unless you remove the cap and fire them.

99% of yachts you are moored next to will have flares on board.

Have you heard of the old Liberty Ship, the SS Richard Montgomery ( I think I have the name right), give her a quick google, if you're concerned about tying up next to me!

 

[Bru]

Yep, know about the Richard Montgomery

I'm not scared of flares (I've handled pyros, they don't bother me) and I was just joking about the kaboom bit

But do you really carry forty rocket flares? Most boats will have two or maybe four. Add in the liferaft might get you up to six or eight

Forty is a lot!

 

[jerrytug]

I have noticed a common theme in the stories of wrecked or marooned mariners goes like, "on the eighth day we sighted a distant steamer, and it was only our extreme dehydration that prevented us from fighting bitterly over whether to fire our last precious distress flare, which we had been hoarding as our most precious possession on the raft"
And so I rest my case.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

I have noticed a common theme in the stories of wrecked or marooned mariners goes like, "on the eighth day we sighted a distant steamer, and it was only our extreme dehydration that prevented us from fighting bitterly over whether to fire our last precious distress flare, which we had been hoarding as our most precious possession on the raft"
And so I rest my case.

If only they had an EPIRB.............

 

[jerrytug]

If only they had an EPIRB.............

No no no, they had been struck by lightning, and anyway it was stolen by the gully-gully man in Port Said.

 

[Bru]

If only they had an EPIRB.............

They'd have been rescued on the second day

I can't help noticing a theme here and the theme is that the advocates of pyro flares are simply refusing to acknowledge recent (within the last decade or so) developments in technology

We've had cases presented as evidence that flares are essential when it turns out that flares weren't particularly brilliant

We've had cases presented against the technology where in fact the survivors might well have perished without it

We've had unsubstantiated claims that SAR pilots won't approach so called laser flares even though the manufacturers state that they have been tested in conjunction with UK SAR helicopters

And we've had an as yet unconfirmed single instance of total electrical failure after a Lightening strike held up as a show stopping argument against eVDS etc

To date, all of these arguments have carefully avoided mentioning that they are out of date. These events took place five, ten or even fifteen years ago

I make a jokey remark to lighten the thread a bit and it's jumped on as indicating that my dislike of pyros is because I'm scared of them.

This didn't need to descend into a lounge style argument but it seems to be going that way with a totally entrenched position being defended by ever wilder arguments

I'm in favour of the new tech however I'm not going to decry the trad methods, my choice not to carry pyros is not without risk which I acknowledge

 

[flaming]

They'd have been rescued on the second day

I can't help noticing a theme here and the theme is that the advocates of pyro flares are simply refusing to acknowledge recent (within the last decade or so) developments in technology

Hardly, I for one sail with just about everything that is currently available.

But NOTHING has yet been developed that can do what flares do. Which is instantly attract the attention of the people closest to you, and most able to help.

Please note that not one person who is "pro flares" has said "ALL you need is flares." That is obvious nonsense. What you are hearing from those of us who are pro flares is that they still have a place. They still do a job that nothing else can do.

You picked up on the Rambler incident that Flares were not used, very true. But the point I was trying to make is that a boat passed within ½ a mile of them but had no idea they were there. Which given that they had activated PLBs and EPIRBs is NOT an argument that these things have totally replaced traditional methods of attracting attention.

Don't think in terms of a turtled superyacht. Think in terms of your boat, dismasted and with a MOB. There's a boat passing, you can see it. You yell on the handheld VHF, but they're not listening (hardly uncommon). The coastguard may be able to hear your handheld, but they're ashore. There's a chopper on the way, but how long is that going to take? The boat that could help you now is RIGHT THERE. But they haven't seen you. And all the time your MOB is weakening, and your plan to get them back onboard probably involves a mast....
And what if you're out of range of a handheld VHF to the coastguard....? EPIRB/PLB reaction time is going to be way too late for your MOB. But there is another boat, you can see it. But they've not got the VHF on....

What price a handheld flare then?

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Let's try it another way.

You're going on a cross channel trip. You may take either EPIRB, PLB or a set of flares. You have to choose just one.
Which do you take?

Hypothetical I know.

 

[Bru]

I'll have to do this shorthand cos I'm on the mobile

Rambler incident..

The EPIRB was not activated

The boat that passed within half a mile would have been just as likely to respond to an eVDS as to a pyro

In your hypothetical scenario, the same applies. Dial in DSC alarms on their VHF and an AIS beacon alert on their chart plotter too as well as a visual distress signal

 

[awol]

Let's try it another way.

You're going on a cross channel trip. You may take either EPIRB, PLB or a set of flares. You have to choose just one.
Which do you take?

Hypothetical I know.

Either/or applies to two things. Hypothetical possibly but definitely bad grammar.

 

[flaming]

I'll have to do this shorthand cos I'm on the mobile

Rambler incident..

The EPIRB was not activated

The boat that passed within half a mile would have been just as likely to respond to an eVDS as to a pyro

In your hypothetical scenario, the same applies. Dial in DSC alarms on their VHF and an AIS beacon alert on their chart plotter too as well as a visual distress signal

Neither DSC or AIS are going to work too well with your antenna underwater with your mast.

And wasn't there a poll recently where a large number of people admitted turning their VHF off precisely because of the frequent alarms?

The laser flares are interesting and may in time be a reasonable replacement. However all the reviews I've seen so far have put them in the "still in development" phase. I'm also sceptical simply because they're intended to be emergency only devices, but have batteries. I'd certainly need some convincing that when I went for them in a year's time in anger that there would actually be enough juice in the battery.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I can't help noticing a theme here and the theme is that the advocates of pyro flares are simply refusing to acknowledge recent (within the last decade or so) developments in technology

I think you're projecting your own beliefs here. I have never seen anyone who is in favour if flares argue against modern technology: I have only seen arguments in favour of carrying flares as well.

 

[Talulah]

.... I'm also sceptical simply because they're intended to be emergency only devices, but have batteries. I'd certainly need some convincing that when I went for them in a year's time in anger that there would actually be enough juice in the battery.

Do you have the same reservations about your EPIRB not working because it's battery operated? A lot of battery operated devices will take both standard and lithium batteries. Of those devices a number of them state on the side "Only SOLAS approved if fitted with Lithium batteries"

 

[Sans Bateau]

Do you have the same reservations about your EPIRB not working because it's battery operated? A lot of battery operated devices will take both standard and lithium batteries. Of those devices a number of them state on the side "Only SOLAS approved if fitted with Lithium batteries"

Another good reason to have your EPIRB checked and new battery fitted by someone like Sartech rather than just a replacement 'battery' from Ebay.

 

[flaming]

Do you have the same reservations about your EPIRB not working because it's battery operated? A lot of battery operated devices will take both standard and lithium batteries. Of those devices a number of them state on the side "Only SOLAS approved if fitted with Lithium batteries"

EPIRB has a test function. And is kept in the cabin and battery changed periodically.

You could do the same with laser flares, but what about the ones packed into the liferaft?

 

[KellysEye]

>I wouldn't rely on orange smoke as a distress signal, except to guide in a rescuer.

I think you have never seen the amount of orange smoke that the big Pains Wessex flare puts out, it goes on for minutes and is a huge amount. That's from experience of firing dozens of them.

 

[maxi77]

We've had unsubstantiated claims that SAR pilots won't approach so called laser flares even though the manufacturers state that they have been tested in conjunction with UK SAR helicopters

When your eyesight is at risk there is a very big difference in flying towards an unknown laser light and flying towards a known device that has been properly cleared for the specific trial. Lasers can damage eyesight and a blind or visually impared pilot has no job, are you going to risk it? Many of the laser pointers you see on the market are potentially dangerous despite the markings on them. The variations in quality of cheap laser diodes can be consideable and though the batch average is safe individual units canbe significantly over spec.

 

[JumbleDuck]

An eVDS such as an Odeo flare could have been just as effective as the flares fired ...

Oh yeah?

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Oh yeah?

It's certainly true that a flare is brighter than the alternatives.........for 60 seconds. Thereafter the reverse applies. We're just going in circles now.

Interestingly, the picture you posted arguably shows the incorrect use of a flare. You are supposed to hold them above the water to ensure that burning hot debris does not drop onto the deck.

 

[Elemental]

Oh yeah?

Tells you nothing. The spectrum of the light emitted by the Odeo will be very different to that emitted by the pyro. The pyro will be bunging out a lot of Infrared and camera CCD's are often fairly sensitive to IR light. What's important is how notable the light is to the human eye, not a camera.

I find myself in the 'use it all' camp. I have a fixed VHF, handheld VHF, just over a dozen pyro flares (floating smokes, rockets, handheld red, white and orange) and stored in a purpose designed airtight box with some silica gel packs), a PLB, a foghorn, and a serviced liferaft. I see no need to reject any of those as they all have strengths and weaknesses. I honestly don't expect to use the anti-collision white flares but throw them out - why. Ditto my expired pyros. I'll keep them on board and when the PLB battery is flat, my VHF's have both failed or I'm out of range, I've fired all my in-date flares then I'll probably fire the expired ones. After that I might start a fire out of my cushions soaked in diesel and chucked overboard.

For christmas this year - I might ask santa for an Odeo flare, but it won't displace any of my other options.