flag etiquette

[Resolution]

I still have the warrant, ensign and burgee from my last UK club, if I were to hoist/ wear the ensign at my house in SE France should I fly the burgee from the chimney? Should I be concerned about visits from HM forces be they Border or otherwise

Don't forget that you also will need to paint the initials of your (ex) yacht club on the transom / back door......

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Don't forget that you also will need to paint the initials of your (ex) yacht club on the transom / back door......

Good point:encouragement:

 

[JumbleDuck]

I wrote "flying the flag of nowhere" because the British Hong Kong ensign had ceased to have any legal standing - it wasn't an ensign, it was just a flag.

I have on occasion made this point to people getting worked up about my Scottish Merchant Flag ... it's not an ensign, just a flag.

all I am interested in is: that's a bl@@dy long way from Porth Cressa.

I feel quite sorry for them. Imagine sailing halfway round the world to be greeted by narrowed eyes and mutterings about your ensign looking a bit too European. Welcome to Britain.

 

[Otter]

I still have the warrant, ensign and burgee from my last UK club, if I were to hoist/ wear the ensign at my house in SE France should I fly the burgee from the chimney? Should I be concerned about visits from HM forces be they Border or otherwise

Nope, you should fly whatever flag you want from your house or boat, flags are fun and the more you fly the better. We have 6 different ensign type flags on board, though for obvious reasons we never fly more than three different ones at a time.

 

[wully1]

A thread on flag etiquette... and not a lot of harrumphing from Blazer / Breton cap wearing sticklers?

Standards are slipping..

 

[zoidberg]

Nope, you should fly whatever flag you want from your house or boat, flags are fun and the more you fly the better. We have 6 different ensign type flags on board, though for obvious reasons we never fly more than three different ones at a time.

Then there's his brother....

 

[overstag]

Curious hobby, this flag/ensign business.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Curious hobby, this flag/ensign business.

Some people just aren't happy unless they are feeling superior to someone else, which is really why the whole nonsense of flag etiquette exists. It's a game.

 

[capnsensible]

Some people just aren't happy unless they are feeling superior to someone else, which is really why the whole nonsense of flag etiquette exists. It's a game.

Thats the thing, the UK is lucky that flag stuff is not taken seriously and can be enjoyed as a bit of fun and a game. Others who sail in different waters and different countries have found that simple things like courtesy flags are taken seriously. And there are penalties for messing about.

Enjoy it where you sail, its not an option for a lot of sailors.

 

[Blue Sunray]

Thats the thing, the UK is lucky that flag stuff is not taken seriously and can be enjoyed as a bit of fun and a game. Others who sail in different waters and different countries have found that simple things like courtesy flags are taken seriously. And there are penalties for messing about.

Enjoy it where you sail, its not an option for a lot of sailors.

:encouragement:

 

[jdc]

Some people just aren't happy unless they are feeling superior to someone else, which is really why the whole nonsense of flag etiquette exists. It's a game.

I don't care for flag etiquette minutiae myself either, but nonetheless I think you're being a mite disingenuous.

Flags have unfortunately been hijacked by political organisations - recall if you will the loathsome BNP or EDL - and so flying anything not strictly according to Hoyle is in some way seeking a rise from someone else. Ie it's done with the sole object of annoying someone - which is not really to be applauded. Furthermore, even if I shared the political view, imho sailing is for the vast majority of us inclusive, tolerant and non-political; a domain where politics should be as forbidden and as much accompanied by forfeits as talking about it would be at an Oxford college dinner! Lastly it can also be taken as something of an insult to those who may have risked their lives and/or lost family colleagues and friends in war if the flag or ensign they have an emotional attachment to is perceived to be denigrated.

I don't feel any of these particularly strongly myself, but it's both insensitive and crass to assume that those who do are somehow all deserving of our contempt and ridicule.

 

[Blue Sunray]

I don't care for flag etiquette minutiae myself either, but nonetheless I think you're being a mite disingenuous.

Flags have unfortunately been hijacked by political organisations - recall if you will the loathsome BNP or EDL - and so flying anything not strictly according to Hoyle is in some way seeking a rise from someone else. Ie it's done with the sole object of annoying someone - which is not really to be applauded. Furthermore, even if I shared the political view, imho sailing is for the vast majority of us inclusive, tolerant and non-political; a domain where politics should be as forbidden and as much accompanied by forfeits as talking about it would be at an Oxford college dinner! Lastly it can also be taken as something of an insult to those who may have risked their lives and/or lost family colleagues and friends in war if the flag or ensign they have an emotional attachment to is perceived to be denigrated.

I don't feel any of these particularly strongly myself, but it's both insensitive and crass to assume that those who do are somehow all deserving of our contempt and ridicule.

That's rather well put. Apart from the fact I haven't a Scooby who or what Hoyle is and I have my doubts about the Oxford dinner point these days.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Thats the thing, the UK is lucky that flag stuff is not taken seriously and can be enjoyed as a bit of fun and a game. Others who sail in different waters and different countries have found that simple things like courtesy flags are taken seriously. And there are penalties for messing about.

Enjoy it where you sail, its not an option for a lot of sailors.

You're talking about the legally mandated use of flags - ensigns, courtesy flags and so on - which is rather different from flag etiquette, which is the silly game played with non-mandatory flags. Are there any countries which fine you for flying the burgee of a more senior club below the burgee of a more junior one?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Ia domain where politics should be as forbidden and as much accompanied by forfeits as talking about it would be at an Oxford college dinner!

I have eaten a lot of Oxford college dinners in my time, and I can assure you that political talk was frequent and not, as far as I can remember, ever accompanied by forfeits.

Lastly it can also be taken as something of an insult to those who may have risked their lives and/or lost family colleagues and friends in war if the flag or ensign they have an emotional attachment to is perceived to be denigrated.

Yes, I have heard the argument that my Scottish Merchant Flag is a calculated insult to those who served in the merchant navy in WW2 and that recreational sailors are morally obliged to fly a red ensign in their memory. On at least two occasions this point of view has been put to me by people flying blue ensigns.

I don't feel any of these particularly strongly myself, but it's both insensitive and crass to assume that those who do are somehow all deserving of our contempt and ridicule.

I don't feel any particular contempt for those who want to play the flag game, just as I don't feel any particular contempt for those who want to play badminton or bezique. I'll give a tolerant smile and pass on, but I won't play the game just because they think it matters.

 

[capnsensible]

You're talking about the legally mandated use of flags - ensigns, courtesy flags and so on - which is rather different from flag etiquette, which is the silly game played with non-mandatory flags. Are there any countries which fine you for flying the burgee of a more senior club below the burgee of a more junior one?

Flag etiquette is a combination of law, good manners and tradition. Unquote.

Personally, when we lived aboard in Gib, I have a big gib flag I used to fly on Gibraltar day. It has also been with me to cricket test matches in Australia and South Africa. However, it would have been somewhat ill advised to fly it in a Spanish Marina...

 

[JumbleDuck]

Flag etiquette is a combination of law, good manners and tradition. Unquote.

Well, that's one point of view, written by someone at the RYA who wanted to muddle up law, manners and tradition a bit. Alternatively, etiquette is

• the set of rules or customs that control accepted behaviour in particular social groups or social situations (Cambridge dictionaries)
  
• the customary code of polite behaviour in society or among members of a particular profession or group. (Oxford dictionaries)

which both include the need for a particular group. If people want to play around with flags and worry which spreader the vice-commodore's pennant for a junior club should fly from, good for them. It's nice to have a hobby and it saves them from wondering whether the younger daughter of an earl goes into dinner before or after the second son of a viscount. It doesn't put the rest of us under any obligation to play too.

Generally I think it is a good idea not to confuse manners with etiquette, in any context.

 

[capnsensible]

Well, that's one point of view, written by someone at the RYA who wanted to muddle up law, manners and tradition a bit. Alternatively, etiquette is

• the set of rules or customs that control accepted behaviour in particular social groups or social situations (Cambridge dictionaries)
  
• the customary code of polite behaviour in society or among members of a particular profession or group. (Oxford dictionaries)

which both include the need for a particular group. If people want to play around with flags and worry which spreader the vice-commodore's pennant for a junior club should fly from, good for them. It's nice to have a hobby and it saves them from wondering whether the younger daughter of an earl goes into dinner before or after the second son of a viscount. It doesn't put the rest of us under any obligation to play too.

Generally I think it is a good idea not to confuse manners with etiquette, in any context.

I think I shall give you a tolerant smile and pass on.

 

[Resolution]

Some people just aren't happy unless they are feeling superior to someone else, which is really why the whole nonsense of flag etiquette exists. It's a game.

I think that you have got this back to front: Some people just aren't happy unless they feel inferior to someone else, which is why they talk so much about their flag etiquette.

 

[Blue Sunray]

I think that you have got this back to front: Some people just aren't happy unless they feel inferior to someone else, which is why they talk so much about their flag etiquette.

 

[NormanS]

I think that before we get entirely lost in the most of the finer points of etiquette, and flag etiquette in particular, an apology from the OP is due. Presumably the yacht in question, from the Cook Islands is perfectly entitled to wear his country's ensign. I had hoped that said apology would have been forthcoming sooner, and without any prompting.