Flag etiquette - who gives a toss?

[Deleted User YDKXO]

A third of the world is starving and, if the vegetablistas are to be believed, we're all going to fry in 50 years but still more column inches are devoted in boating mag letters pages to the subject of flag etiquette than any other.
Is it a hanging offence if an ensign is'nt lowered at sunset or 2100hrs whichever is the earlier? So what if somebody flies a skull and crossbones or the flag of St George? Is there any law which backs up these conventions other than international maritime law requiring an ensign to be flown in foreign waters?
Personally I try to respect flag etiquette but I certainly dont lose any sleep if I forget and my ensign is still flying at midnight
Am I missing the point here?

 

[Geoffs]

One way to avoid braching any, as you imply - silly etiquette, is not to fly one. I can't be bothered with any silly bits of rag fluttering around. Suppose if I went to foreign lands it might be different, but I don't.

It's surprising how many small power boats you see with the union flag flying from their stern pole. Capital offense that, locked in Tower to be hung drawn & quartered! Not that proud to be part of Tony land, paying over 200% tax on road and boat fuel!!!

 

[miket]

I think most of us are like you. We endeavour to do the right thing.

I left my ensign out last Saturday night. Just forgot it. So I'm human not a traitor!!

One or two people do seem to get their knickers in a twist, and the mag's seem to like printing them.

 

[paulineb]

As I'm a bit of a rebel, my union jack is always flying, night and day, whether I'm on board or not. Another bit of flaggery that I find pisses me off is risking life and limb in a lumpy sea whilst trying to change the courtesy flag en route from one country to another. Is it really worth injuring yourself for ?

Pauline B

 

[hlb]

I operate a bit like the queen. I fly the flag when I'm in residence and take it down when I go home.
This is not to observe any ritual, its just so its not knackered when I return.
By the way, on the subject of rituals. I've also been to Jersey three times and forgot to tell the customs on each occasion.
I know this is a bit more serious than the flag issue but its just that I forget, mainly because I dont know what to do about all the questions about importing cooked meats ect.
I mean. Do they really want to know about the half pound of bacon or the boild ham in the fridge.

Haydn

 

[Guest]

At long last - you have said it all. This week we received an edict from no lesser person than Admiral Raymond Baxter. As far as I know he is a has been Beeb presenter, so who made him an admiral ? There are no prizes for guessing what this edict was all about, being naughty and flying the wrong flags. Please 'admiral' Baxter and fellow Little Ship members save it for your bathtime and rubber ducks.

 

[miket]

I have no connection with ADLS (Association of Dunkirk Little Ships) other than an admiration of their craft.

I believe Raymond Baxter is Admiral of the ADLS, an informal title bestowed on him in recognition of the work he has done for the Association over a long period and also in recognition of his having been a past Commodore (I don't think they use that title?) of ADLS.

Yes, he was a television presenter.

I think we must be tolerant of the views held by others, even if they appear over-enthusiastic to us. The burgee of ADLS is the cross of St George defaced with the coat of arms of the City of Dunkirk (I believe), of which they are justifiably proud. Could it be that your boat was flying a "cross of St George" ensign in place of the red or blue ensign? I can see that this might cause concern to the ADLS, although it does seem to be becoming more common.

Live and let live.

 

[Guest]

An interesting reply - It seems its ok for ADLS to make someone an 'admiral' if it so takes them and then lay the law down about what is right and what is not.

As you say it is now common for craft to fly the cross of St.George and upset all sorts of people. However times have changed it is no longer the 1940's If individuals from other parts of the former United Kingdom can fly flags to identify their origins there is a law that says its discriminatory not to allow an Englishman the same right. Live and let live begins at home.

 

[Guest]

I agree. I fly a Saltire at the masthead (radar arch actually)and a red ensign on the transom. We are all Scottish up here you see, and if we can fly our national flag, albeit perhaps illegally, then there is no reason why an Englishman cannot fly the cross of St George.
Non compliance with flag etiquette is seen as poor form by the same sort of minds that require a collar and tie in the golf clubhouse and don't let you in the club unless you're white, anglo saxon and an ex public schoolboy.

Nick

 

[Guest]

Yes, you are missing the point.

 

[vyv_cox]

You may have missed this news item, it appeared in some sailing magazines, but it seems worth repeating.

The "Euroflags" are appearing all over Europe, the blue background, daisy chain of stars and national flag in one corner. It appears that to fly one of these on a UK registered boat is not only questionable etiquette, it is illegal. A British boat, I think in Lisbon, was seized by the British Consul for flying this flag. I don't know the outcome, but no doubt it caused considerable embarrassment, and probably money, to the owner.

 

[Guest]

flags

Hopefully I shall be in france on the weekend and then onto the channel Isles for a day and back Monday ,I m not sure I have room to fly all the flags I apparently require.

A Red ensign
A Q flag
A french curtesy flag
A club burgey

Its small wonder some power boats have twin aerials ...they need it for all the flags they need to fly !

I have a large Michelin man flag hanging around maybe I should fly that as well

 

[Guest]

Re: flags

Errrm, the most you need to fly is a red ensign, and a Q and courtesy flag on entry. The Q flag can be lowered as soon as you've done the customs bit. I fly 12"x9" courtesy flags, and they take up hardly any room.

Aren't you proud to fly the red ensign? Does it really put you out to raise a courtesy flag? Didn't your mum teach you to give up your seat on the bus to old ladies?

C'mon guys, it's tradition. It doesn't hurt anyone, and it's part of what boating's about, just like reading the weather and planning passages etc...

 

[Guest]

Firstly, I do not believe that the British Consul in Lisbon has power to seize any vessel in a foreign port. At best, he might persuade the Portuguese to do something but I doubt very much if they would take action against someone for flying the EU flag. If you have more details, please let us know.

Secondly, and turning to my own case, what government is going to risk trying to prosecute a Scot for flying the Scottish Flag alongside the Red Ensign on a boat registered in Scotland, in a Scottish marina, plying Scottish waters. The thought is just silly and if they do just think of the publicity up here. The local press/Scot Nats would have a field day and deservedly so.

My own position is that I am British and Scottish, in that order and proud of both and I see no reason not to reflect that on my boat.

Nick

 

[Guest]

There is nothing to stop someone flying the EU flag, or the Scottish flag for that matter.

The problem with the person in Lisbon was that the EU flag had a Union flag design in the corner. It therefore looked like a blue ensign defaced with the EU stars. Flying a Union flag defaced in an unauthorised manner is a criminal offence.

It was the Portuguese maritime authorities who confiscated the flag, after consulting with the British embassy. I have an e-mail from the embassy describing what happened, because I asked them, out of interest.

As I say, there's nothing to stop you flying a saltire or an EU flag which doesn't have the union jack design on it. You are however obliged by law to fly the appropriate authorised blue/red/white ensign when entering or leaving a foreign port or when challenged by HM officials, and the saltire/EU flag wouldn't do for that purpose.

 

[miket]

Is "Admiral" of the ADLS so very different from "Commodore" as used by most Boat Clubs?

I don't think they "lay down the law". I suspect it was a comment, appropriate or not, as to the use of a "flag" in a particular instance.

 

[vyv_cox]

Case was reported in RYA Cruising supplement, January 2001. According to the brief article, the flag was confiscated and the skipper was expected to face a heavy fine.

 

[Bergman]

I tend to agree with you, I once got thouroughly snarled at in Malahide because my Irish courtesy flag had drooped a few inches.

I thought they man was a prat then and still do.

The thing about flags that bothers me comes from spending time in Northern Ireland where every other house seems to have a damned great flag flying in the garden. You get the feeling they are there there more as a challenge to the other side than as a symbol of ones nationallity.

I don't get worked up over Saltires or St Georges' Cross being flown, I just worry slightly about what is the real reason why people do it.

I have always thought of seafaring as one of the few truly international pastimes where seamanship, mutual respect and tolerance went hand in hand.

Perhaps I am time expired

 

[ccscott49]

According to that arsehole Robin Cook, there's no such thing as an Englishman!

 

[ccscott49]

It is not illegal to fly a Scots flag (St. Andrews cross) from the port spreader, so there is no problem there, I do and am damn proud of it! I also fly a red ensign from the mizzen, which I am also entitled to, I think an Englishman should be allowed to fly his own flag from the spreader aswell, whats the problem? euro flags, no thanks! And the british consul in a foriegn country does have the right to have a britsh REGISTERED yacht seized. The people flying a cross of St. George, were not pretending to be dunkirk little ships, as we know there ensign is different, I beleive we have bigger fish to fry, than flag abusers! wise up lads!