Fischer Panda Generators ? 3.8 to 5 KW ??

[HanSolo]

Interesting comment this. I have to replace the totally knackered Paguro 3000 genny in my boat shortly. I am thinking of a DC genny and inverter as you describe. I have 660ah domestic battery bank, and would put in a hefty pure sine wave inverter.
The question I have is if I want to install a water maker, decent freezer and AC for a trip to warmer climes, is a DC system the way to go or am I better to stay with AC for this?

My thoughts on this are that you can get very adequate watermakers and freezers in 12volt, not sure about AC but big inverters are reasonably cheap.

the issue of battery charging is not so easy and big chartgers are not cheap. if you run the main engine for charging you have all sorts of other issues such as expensive servicing, reduced engine life through inefficient use (risk of glazing bores etc.). the engine on the Fischer Panda AGT 4000 is only 5.9hp and is rated to output 280 amps. The one i have is not in a case but about half the price of the one on ebay?

 

[KellysEye]

3,000 rpm generators are lifed for 500 hours (1,500rpm 8,000), maximum life is 1,000 hours but the maintenance costs are not usually worth it. OK for weekend sailing and the odd week away though.

 

[HanSolo]

3,000 rpm generators are lifed for 500 hours (1,500rpm 8,000), maximum life is 1,000 hours but the maintenance costs are not usually worth it. OK for weekend sailing and the odd week away though.

maybe made in china £59 petrol would wear out so quick. from various sources: A 3000rpm generator has a life span of at least 10,000 hours (normal use) before it needs any major overhaul ( http://www.oceanoptions.com/mv_highrpmgenerators.html ) although i have seen and heard from various publications and mechanics that 4000 to 5000 hours is more usual for marine engines.

 

[Dockhead]

3,000 rpm generators are lifed for 500 hours (1,500rpm 8,000), maximum life is 1,000 hours but the maintenance costs are not usually worth it. OK for weekend sailing and the odd week away though.

Right.

I have not owned one, so my knowledge is second hand, but there is a LOT of second hand information about the notorious unreliability of Fischer-Panda gensets, especially the smaller ones, some of which run at MORE than 3,000 RPM.

FWIW, I hate the idea of them -- very small one or two cylinder engines revving their guts out in a sealed box. Over-engineered, overstressed, overcomplicated, and poorly executed -- just what you don't want in a bit of marine kit, mission-critical or not.

If you can afford the cost and can accomodate the bulk and weight on board, a 1,500 RPM genset like an Onan, Northern Lights, or Kohler is the way to go, IMHO. They are dead simple, can be fixed with a hammer and a crowbar, are much quieter, and are totally unstressed (and sound unstressed -- it's not just the decibels, but the timbre of the noise, which bothers one), loping along at 1,500 rpm. They are MUCH more reliable -- read the statistics in YM on gear failures in the ARC.

The difference in fuel consumption is small. The cost of repairs and maintenance of a highly stressed overcomplicated item like a FP will dwarf any possible savings on fuel.

 

[Dockhead]

And by the way, this test by Victron:

http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/VE_Marine_generator_test_RVA_07-jan-2008.pdf

Shows that the Fischer-Panda gensets are somewhat noisier and have somewhat worse fuel consumption than 1500 RPM gensets.

Victron did not test the DC versions of the FP gensets. I would expect the efficiency of a DC genset running AC loads through an ordinary inverter to be somewhat worse than the AC genset (which in the case of FP has a built-in inverter finely tuned to the genset). Running DC loads probably better.

 

[mattnj]

Worrying reading..
http://www.sailwhisper.com/logs/news_20080225.php

 

[Chris_Robb]

Have u used one ?, what are your thoughts, observations, comments etc ?

Also, do u know of one for sale ??.. or....want to sell one !!!... if so, pm me.. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif


Joe n Jayne

Why restrict your choice to FP?

I have a Pagura 4000 240V with the raw water cooling Ferryman diesel.

Its done some 200 hours now without a fault. I am more than happy with it.

AC or DC - mine is used mainly to heat water in the mornings. Solar panels seem to do all our battery requirements now we have a well insulated fridge. So will a DC one be suitable to run a 1KW water heater as its main job (via an inverter?)

If 'er in doors wasn't worried about hot water - and it went wrong, I would not bother with a generator at all. Boats should fall into the KISS principle as much as possible.

 

[mattnj]

Right.

FWIW, I hate the idea of them -- very small one or two cylinder engines revving their guts out in a sealed box. Over-engineered, overstressed, overcomplicated, and poorly executed -- just what you don't want in a bit of marine kit, mission-critical or not.

I dont really understand this....
3000rpm isnt exactly "revving thir guts out" it is normal operating speed, we are always warnded here how diesels "like to work hard" to avoid bore glazing...as for a sealed box, well the engine doesnt care where it is, as long as it is cooled...

I have a yanmar open frame small single cylinder diesel genny, that "revs its guts out" at 3000rpm and has done several thousand hours not missed a beat...

Anyway are these small gensets really unreliable and do they need replacing at 500hours?

I have read all the similar stories about the volvo penta 2003turbo that i have, and how terrible it is, the reality is that it starts instantly, has done 3900hours over 26 years and never had any major problems, it is smooth and our boat is the fastest moting sailing boat we have ever had, i cant really find anything wrong with it....people seem to refer back to the man whos blew up because the oil cooler had never been looked at and was leaking which was just down to a lack of servicing.

Its probably the same with the gensets, they are tucked away in a box and never seviced or looked at, then they are unreliable and get a bad name by all.
I bet i could buy one, including a FP and it would still be fine in 20years time

 

[stuartwineberg]

This is indeed FP advice

I've got the 4kVA raw-water cooled one and it's been fine since I bought the boat in 2009. Previous owner has replaced the inlet water corrosion block (at approx 10 years old) as well as the water pump (not sure why). There's also been a change made to the cooling system to bypass the thermostat, forcing all cooling water through the engine - the service information I got says that FP gave advice to do this, but I'm not sure what problem this was trying to fix. It's a great accessory to have on the boat as it allows endless hot water, showers, battery charging and fan heating and is pretty quiet external to the boat. Onboard, the noise is not too bad, but not very restful to have running.

Search on my username for lots of moans about these raw water gensets. You are right about the thermostat. When mine kept overheating and cutting out (caused in fact by corrosion of that sacrificial manifold) the first advice from FP was get rid of the thermostat, it doesnt do anything, just corrodes up and stops working. Despite the moans I have to agree that once running it does what it says on the can and churns out 240V pretty reliably.

 

[HanSolo]

And by the way, this test by Victron:

http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/VE_Marine_generator_test_RVA_07-jan-2008.pdf

Shows that the Fischer-Panda gensets are somewhat noisier and have somewhat worse fuel consumption than 1500 RPM gensets.

Victron did not test the DC versions of the FP gensets. I would expect the efficiency of a DC genset running AC loads through an ordinary inverter to be somewhat worse than the AC genset (which in the case of FP has a built-in inverter finely tuned to the genset). Running DC loads probably better.

Hi thanks a great link. I think it highlights the extra efficiency of running the genset to charge batteries
"Generators have a very at low load
- Substantial reduction of fuel consumption can therefore be achieved by using a hybrid
MultiPlus/battery/generator system instead of a stand alone generator.p23"
"The Fisher Panda 4000i was also (by far) the quietest unit of the low power units tested.p28"

for more details and photos of my Fischer Pander Generator AGT4000

go here. http://boating-and-sailing.com/

 

[mattnj]

Hi thanks a great link. I think it highlights the extra efficiency of running the genset to charge batteries
"Generators have a very at low load
- Substantial reduction of fuel consumption can therefore be achieved by using a hybrid
MultiPlus/battery/generator system instead of a stand alone generator.p23"
"The Fisher Panda 4000i was also (by far) the quietest unit of the low power units tested.p28"

for more details and photos of my Fischer Pander Generator AGT4000
go here. http://boating-and-sailing.com/

You should probably mention here or on your advert (you seem to be trying to sell it not on the "For Sale" board and well over the £400 limit by the way) that it hasnt been used/run for at least 5/6 years and you can't actually say for sure that it does all work as you havent ever seen it running, and it has the acoustic case missing... it may save someone else a long trip down to you to buy it.