First yacht

[mrplastic]

I am seriously considering moving from a motor cruiser to a yacht. Naturally I have many questions a few apprehensions, and in need of some useful advice!

My wife and I have been boating for around 4 years, we have gained lots of experience having spent around 400 hours on the water, along with dayskipper and helmsman certs. Also lots of night hours.

I have my eye on a boat, its a new 2003 model Dufour 36 Classic with a shoal keel. It's got a pretty good spec incl a full electronics pack, bowthruster, in mast furling, wheel steering and a 29hp volvo engine with a saildrive. It also has a complete teak deck and cockpit. The mainsail has 3 reef points and a furling genoa ( I am reading from the spec sheet here!)
Although we have both been on the odd sailboat we have never sailed so would need to learn.
Does anyone know if the Dufour would make a good first yacht? Is it a good bad or indifferent brand? Better or worse than a Jeanneau or a Beneteau/Bavaria or more of the same?
Is there something specific I should look for or specify as an option?
I understand a shoal keel doesn't perform as well as a deep keel...would I notice this? Is it a major disadvantage overall?

Why a 36'? I like a lot of room and intend to spend lots of time on the boat.

No doubt I have a lot to learn and have asked all the wrong questions.....help!!

Any advice would be useful....btw if it's relevent, I currently run around on the east coast.



Cheers

CLP

 

[graham]

Shoal draught keel will not perform quite as well as the deep keel version(Im speaking generally here never having sailed this particular model of boat).

If you intend keeping the boat or visiting places with limited depth of water go for the shoal keel.If you intend mostly doing longer offshore passages in deep water usually a deeper keel will give improved windward performance.

Dufour have been making boats since the 60s or maybe longer.They must be doing something right.

 

[LadyInBed]

Sounds like a good option provided that you can both reconcile yourselves to taking 14 hours rather than 4 to make a passage and you don’t mind spending those hours trying to move around a heeling boat.

PS - I could well be wrong as I have never used it but if it has ‘in mast’ reefing, I would not have thought it would have ‘three’ reefing points, as I thought that in mast reefing is an infinitely variable system.

 

[graham]

it may take longer under sail but there is a far greater sense of achievement. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gifAs picked up by Lady in Bed you need to clarify which reefing system it has for the mainsail.

 

[mrplastic]

Sorry, yes it has in mast reefing fitted as an option. The standard boat has the 3 reefing points. I don't think the extra time will be an issue, to be honest I'm looking forward to the slow down...I work all week at a manic pace. I guess that moving around a heeling boat will be new and probably awkward at first...but I guess it's something you get used to. My 35' powerboat is probably just as uncomfortable to move around in at speed, and if you stop to sort something it rolls around horribly. Something else that really appeals is the potential to cover big distances without the huge fuel costs that comes with a 35' twin engined boat!

 

[wicked]

Why don't you charter a similar one for a week or even a weekend. There are plenty of Dufour models around for charter. You will soon know if it's right for you.

Just a thought - personally on a shoal keel boat I wouldn't want in-mast reefing, mainly due to the extra weight up top. Why not go for sinle line reefing instead if that is an option.

Dave

 

[LadyInBed]

Sounds like your mind is set on the right track, I reckon you will enjoy the new experience.

 

[Birdseye]

Its impossible to sensibly answer your question about suitablilty without some indication of how you plan to use the boat

As far as "brand" is concerned, much of that is in the eye of the individual beholder and inevtiably its subject to snobbery and prejudice. Personally, I would bracket Dufour along with the other French makes, and Bavaria, Hanse as the marine equivalent of Ford, Renault etc. Sailing boats these days seem to divide into 2 clear groups - the Swedes and Dutch as the floating BMW / Mercs and the French and Germans as the floating Fords.

Key issue in a first boat is ease of reselling without too much loss. Its unlikely that you will chose exactly the right longer term boat first time out - you might find you want to race, or to cruise, up shallow creeks, blue water.

Dont pay too much for inventory. It may save you some dosh, but it doesnt add much to boat resale prices. It simply tends to make selling easier.

Dont worry about the shallow keel unless you are racing in which case the Dufour isnt the right choice anyway. You probably wont notice the performance difference - it will be masked by your initial lack of skill anyway. Where you will appreciate it is in getting into interesting shallow harbours, getting across the bar earlier than the deep keel boats.

Go on a sailing course. I would even be tempted to go on a dinghy sailing course somewhere warm like the med. Big boats are easier to sail than dinghies, but the skills you learn in a dinghy (eg steering with the sails, sailing up to pontoons etc) are really useful. And sailing, unlike mobo driving, is all about the exercise of a skill.

 

[mrplastic]

Thanks for the information, all valid points. To Birdseye I would say that we intend to use the boat pretty locally (Walton/harwich/Deben/brightlingsea etc) at least to start with anyway. The main intention is to eventually stop work and take the boat to Portugal (algarve) where we intend to live on it/cruise around for 3 months during the summertime (another reason for the size) while the house is rented out to generate some additional income.

We fully intend to get some training via the East Anglian sailing School and the agents are happy to let us trial the boat for a few days with onboard guidance.

From the comments you have made, the shoal keel will probably suit us very well. It is apparently 1.45m cast iron if that means anything!. One further qustion is the engine, it's a 28hp Volvo diesel with a sail drive is that about right or would it be underpowered in a heavy sea?

I take your point about skill, I agree that a great deal more skill is required to sail but don't be fooled in thinking that mooring or driving a 5 tonne keel-less motorboat in a blow/heavy sea / strong current is easy. Trust me it takes a lot of skill to make it look that way! We're not all nutters without training

 

[AliM]

The most valuable training you could have is on your own yacht. East Anglian Sailing School will arrange an own-boat tuition session for you - two days, a week, whatever you feel you need. They did it for us, and it was brilliant, because the instructor cnould concentrate on the bits we actually needed to know, rather than on a set syllabus or catering for other people on a course. In our case, we spent most of the time on manoevring round the marina (you an probably do that already) rather than sailing (which we were already reasonably competent at, but you will need some help on). While you are about it, you could get some qualification like ICC, which may help later on - I don't know what the situation is in Portugal.

Enjoy it, and let us know how you get on.

Ali

 

[mrplastic]

I agree, I have used EASS in the past and Peter Smith is a fantastic teacher. I haven't got an ICC yet but will probably take that why I still have the MB as I am totally familiar with the boat. Good advice about the own boat training, I'll certainly take that up. It would be a pleasure to keep you in the picture. Reading between the lines it seems that you bought a boat having only limited experience....good move?

 

[Jeremy_W]

>>> To Birdseye I would say that we intend to use the boat pretty locally (Walton/harwich/Deben/brightlingsea etc)

You'll definitely run into a good few forum users round there, although quite a few of them sail gaffers and hang out on "Classic Boat" forum. The shoal draft sounds like a good idea for those waters.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

We're out there, and not in a gaffer!... we regularly (most weekends) meet a forum member or two.... at Harwich, Ipswich, Walton, etc etc...

Welcome (soon) to the world of rag and sticks! A friendly wave is a certainty..... as long as you promise not to bump into us.... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Where are you planning on keeping her? we are in Ipswich, and if you are too, then more than happy to help with any concerns or confusions whenever we can....

For what its worth, we tried a shoal draft a while back, and with a modern boat configuration, found it difficult to feel any difference.... the biggest advantage IMHO on the east coast is not the size of the draft, but whether or not you can take the ground..... otherwise you just worry about running aground in different places from the deep fin keelers!... but then, as an experienced user of the area, you'll already know where the shallow bits are.../forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[AliM]

Yes, we bought a boat in December 2003, with very limited experience, though we could sail dinghies reasonably competently, and had the theory bits of paper. We sailed to Denmark about 5 months after getting the boat, got lots of super sailing in the Baltic for a few months, and sailed back in August/September last year. The own-boat training gave us loads of confidence, so that close-quarters manouvering in the very crowded marinas, harbours and locks held no great horrors. We had completely different training requirements to you, but that's where tuition on your own boat is so useful. Besides that, it was great fun!

Other advice is to get help for long passages, because a crossing of the North Sea or Channel in a sailing boat is no longer a quick day-trip!

 

[mrplastic]

Interesting stuff. I appreciate the point about extended trip times, I admit it is a concern. I can make the crossing from Ramsgate to Ostend in 2hrs 20mins and that's going steady!

I tell myself that there are so many sailors out there actually doing it (as opposed to so many MB's used as caravans) that it must be worthwhile and enjoyable!

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Absolutely....

Ramsgate to Oostende is 18 to 20 hours..... but the pleasure of switching off the engine, and the quiet sound of the boat gently under her own way is marvellous....

 

[graham]

i think that birdseyes comparison of yacht "brands"with cars sums up the situation quite well.

re Engine hp 29 hp would be the sort of size you would expect in a modern 36 footer. once again it depends on how you sail.For some yachties the engine is used only for manouvering in and out of harbours/marinas and for making progress when there is not much wind.others use the engine a lot more and rarely ever sail to windward.

If you intend to learn to sail efficiently(its not hard to learn the basics of sail trim in a few days)28 hp will be more than adequate.If you intend to motor a lot and never sail to windward then you could probably do with another 10 hp.

Usually it is much kinder on the boat and crew to sail rather than motor .The boat will be heeling but the motion will be much steadier and quieter. A bit of heeling makes the leeward berths more comfortable and safe for sleeping in anyway.Cooking at an angle can be interesting but you get used to it.

 

[Sailfree]

The first big boat we bought was a Dufour 36 (deep keel). I had it in charter with Hamble School of Yachting (HSY) for 3 years. HSY consider it seaworthy and I was informed that it often did a week course for Yachtmaster candidates by sailing to Belgium and back that week to increase their sea miles. It often went out in conditions that the average owner would not consider. In those 3 years it had extensive use but was serviced and repaired as necessary. A charter boat well looked after can be better than a neglected one but all charter boats do have one thing in common, if there are any weaknesses the charter market will find them first. I was recently put off one make after learning of its reliability with one charter school.

After 3 years I had no hesitation in buying another Dufour but this time the 38. After 3 years I would have replaced this with the new 44 had "the Volvo bits" and Volvos response make me decide never to own another boat with Volvo bits. However my unfortunate experience with Volvo may not be yours and hopefully Volvo may learn what "Customer Care" is!

I believe the Dufour to be a good production boat on parr with the Beneteau, better than the Elans, Bavarias, Hanse and Catalina. There are other production boats that are better but dearer. As a rough guide work out the cost per kg of boat to obtain the build quality rather than cost per length. You do get what you pay for but the Marine market get away with murder by selling dreams not reality. There is nearly always a large snagging list on new boats on what is effectively a product less sophisticated/complex than a car. I heard today of a person who moved up to an Oyster and was dissappointed by the snagging list.

I never consider buying anything at a price I know I can confidently sell it at to be a concern. The shoal keel is ideal for east coast sailing but would recommend that you buy the boat for experience and use it to decide exactly what you want on your long term boat and hence don't invest too much £ into it. A deep keel would be preferable for the South coast ,France and Portugal unless you intend to predominatly go creek crawling.

Trust this helps.

 

[mrplastic]

Thanks for the info, all very useful stuff coming from a former owner. The boat is a 2003 model, never launched. It has lots of stuff fitted already and they will throw in a bowthruster, sprayhood and bimini. I can get it for around £95k which I think is pretty fair.

Cheers

CLP

 

[FullCircle]

Not wanting to put you off.
If this is a 2003 boat never launched, is it the one they had up at Westways? I would be asking myself why it hasn't sold for 2 years, and if it would be easy to move on again.
Still, if there is a real bargain to be had, go for it.

I hate to say it, but there at least 3 more new Jeanneau 35s on the East Coast just this year! We looked at the Dufour, but couldn't fathom where the extra cash wanted went to. You could get a sailaway new Jen 35 for much less than the 95k asking. And without the Volvo /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

At the end of the day, weigh it up, I am sure it is a safe fast boat...


Jim