First timer - heavy displacement boat

[Kasabian]

Hi,

I am thinking about buying a heavy displacement boat like a Tradewind 35 as a first boat for myself with minimal sailing experience. I simply prefer the concept these kinds of boats and their sense of safeness appeals to me. However, I would like know if this would be a poor choice. I understand they need more of a blow to get going so am I likely to get much use out in average southern North Sea area where I sailing most? I don't think i'dbe happy if i'll be finding myself motorsailing more often than not. Also, I appreciate they can be a pig maneuvering reverse engine. Any other sensible comments on the downsides would be welcome. Thanks!

 

[TQA]

Do you want to race or sail long distances? If the answer is no, then does it matter how fast you go?

In my book if you are a cruiser then take comfort and security every time. My first boat was a heavy steel centre cockpit job that was slooooow but I sailed her most places as I hated to motor. Just never past anybody. But she was a comfortable old rocking chair and when danger threatened the thought that a determined man with a sledge hammer would have been pushed to even dent her was a happy one.

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

My first boat was a Rustler 36. Solid, long keel, and heavy displacement for the LWL.

My view is that as a novice, you are far better with solid, reliable, predictable and comfortable as opposed to light, quirky, unpredictable and spartan!

Some people say this approch should be used when selecting a life-partner as well. All I know is that it is called the sensible thing to do.

"Sorry Jeremy, very bad choice of words"

 

[Goldie]

You've hit the nail on the head with the handling under power, especially astern. No much of an issue when anchoring or using swinging moorings but can concentrate the mind in a marina! The Tradewinds is a great boat and gorgeous with it but when we've sailed in company or 'raced' against them then yes, they do appear slow in light airs so expect to have to use a big ghoster or 'chute to keep up the pace. FWIW, both the Biscay 36 and the Rustler 36 - both similar size and shapes - seem a bit quicker. If that doesn't worry you and it depends on what sort of sailing you're planning, then great, you'll love the Tradewinds. As the wind picks up, the difference diminishes and when it's blowing hard, you'll bless the hull shape for the easy motion. The only other downside to point out is that these 'wine glass section' hulls tend to sail at a slightly higher angle of heel than a more modern design but will remain controllable throughout - none of this stalling the rudder and rounding up malarkey. Accomodation of course, isn't a patch on the modern hulls that carry their beam all the way aft - but if that was you priority, you wouldn't be looking at the Tradewinds...

I've sailed all sorts, but after 50000+ miles in 3 long keeled boats over 28 years, I'm not planning on changing!

 

[Babylon]

I bought a Vancouver 27, also long-keel and heavy-displacement, as a first boat four years ago and don't regret it in the slightest.

Despite the addition of a staysail (V27s are cutter-rigged) and therefore running backstays and extra sheets to contend with, and the usual unpredictability of a long-keel in astern, I never had any problems with her as a novice skipper.

Relative slowness is not an issue. Although only 27ft she is quite capable of making 5-6 knots in a decent wind and we've hit over 7 knots (the trick, as with most yachts, is to sail her upright by reefing down early). In light winds she isn't going to be as quick or accelerate out of a tack or recover from a stopping-chop as a modern racer, but that's not the point.

The BIG difference is that at sea in boisterous conditions of wind and wave, she'll track much straighter with far less effort than a flightly modern yacht, and I've never known her to broach. Carry too much sail for the conditions, she'll put her rail under etc, but with all that lead in the long keel she'll stiffen up and go no further.

By way of a comparison, I recently crossed the channel as crew on a friend's Moody 336, which is quite a heavy boat for a fin-keeler. In the difficult swell and unpredictable gusts, she had to be actively helmed without any momentary loss of focus, and the motion made everyone except the helmsman sick (as the concentration of helming took one's mind off the sickening motion).

I'd imagine that the Tradewind 35 is not dissimilar to the Vancouver. In fact, a previous owner of my own boat for over ten years now sails a Tradewind 35 in the North Sea.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Babs

PS As regards going astern, if you are going into a tidal marina, then either request a hammerhead berth for ease of getting on/off, or time your arrival/departure so that you aren't exposed to unpredictable tide up your stern during docking manoeuvres. With a heavy long-keeler you get fast lessons in this sort of seamanship at the very minor expense of a little inconvenience.

 

[shaunksb]

Tricky this as I aspire to a rustler 36 or vancouver 34 but I would not buy one as a first cruising boat.

I would honestly suggest a popular brand more modern cruiser to start with. (see below )

It's akin to asking what car to buy after passing your test. A Range Rover because they are "safe" on ice and snow and can do huge mileages.

Are you going to be going out after just passing your test if the roads are covered in sheet ice?

Are you going to be doing huge mileages?

Can you park it?

If not a Renault Megane would be a more sensible choice to start with......


.

 

[Tranona]

Welcome to the forum.

Really depends on what you want to do. Recognise that the vast majority of cruising sailors around our shores do not use boats of that type. John Rock designed that particular boat for himself to go bluewater sailing, mostly on his own or with a small crew. If that is what you want to do, then it is one of the best designs available. If you want to potter around the coast of the Bitish Isles there are many other boats that are far more suitable.

This does not mean that people do not use boats like that for coastal and cross channel type sailing, but the fact is that the numbers of that design built in the 30 years it has been in production barely run into 3 figures. When you think that is a weeks production for today's builders and even if you go back to popular boats of the same period such as the Moodys and Westerlys that were built in the hundreds in 4 or 5 year runs, you appreciate what a minority interest this type of boat is. The same applies to nearly all of the older style long keel boats in this size range - very few except for the odd one or two like the Nic 32 sold in any numbers before they were superceded by more modern and practical designs (practical for the typical cruising sailor that is).

To me, the major downside of this type of boat - much as I love the looks and feel of tradition (I have an old long keel boat myself) is that it is not the best for the type of use you are describing. Boats should be bought with the head as much as the heart and a rational assessment of the requirements of typical coastal cruising in today's environment would not lead you to that type of boat.

This is not meant to be a criticism of the people who like this type of boat, just a reflection on reality.

And BTW treat all the talk about safety with some scepticism. There is just no evidence that this type of boat is any "safer" than others. Safety is about operating within the capability of the boat and particularly yourself as skipper.

 

[BAtoo]

You say you have minimal experience - how much do you have, have you sailed with others, done any sea-school practicals??
In my book £60-80K is a lot to invest in a boat if you don't know whether you will enjoy it.

Get some experience sailing lots of types of boats - plenty of people need crew - especially racing where you will get to know how fin keelers sail!!

Heavy, long keeled (& slow) doesn't automatically give safety. Where you put your boat & how you handle it gives safety.

You, and your marina neighbours (even if you only visit), wont like a novice struggling with hard-to-handle boat.
(Saying that the recent "worst-handling" idiot I saw was charging around Neptune Marina in a modern fin keeler (Sigma 36) & managed to break someones transom hung rudder stock!!)

Mentioning the Sigma 36 - that, or probably preferably a Sigma 362 - would be a great sea-worthy, go-anywhere (around the North Sea) boat for you. Better accommodation, easier to handle, will take anything the N Sea/Channel etc will throw at you.
Here - http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...=Feet&checked_boats=2371826&back=/core/listin - probably the most over-photographed yacht advert I've seen !!

 

[chrisedwards]

You've hit the nail on the head with the handling under power, especially astern. No much of an issue when anchoring or using swinging moorings but can concentrate the mind in a marina! The Tradewinds is a great boat and gorgeous with it but when we've sailed in company or 'raced' against them then yes, they do appear slow in light airs so expect to have to use a big ghoster or 'chute to keep up the pace. FWIW, both the Biscay 36 and the Rustler 36 - both similar size and shapes - seem a bit quicker. If that doesn't worry you and it depends on what sort of sailing you're planning, then great, you'll love the Tradewinds. As the wind picks up, the difference diminishes and when it's blowing hard, you'll bless the hull shape for the easy motion. The only other downside to point out is that these 'wine glass section' hulls tend to sail at a slightly higher angle of heel than a more modern design but will remain controllable throughout - none of this stalling the rudder and rounding up malarkey. Accomodation of course, isn't a patch on the modern hulls that carry their beam all the way aft - but if that was you priority, you wouldn't be looking at the Tradewinds...

I've sailed all sorts, but after 50000+ miles in 3 long keeled boats over 28 years, I'm not planning on changing!

I would like to second this - handling under power - some long keelers are predictable in their unpredictablity so at least you are aware.

Long keelers are far far easier to manoeuvre under sail (issues such as keel and rudder stall) and of course sail. So you decide what you want to do and pick the right boat.

 

[Kilter]

They are not difficult to park once you get used to them. You know which way she will react and adjust accordingly. Practice out in the bay with a buoy or two until you are confident. TWs are great boats, we lived aboard one for two years and did an Atlantic circuit in her. There is another thread running at the moment about then too so check that out.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

..... I understand they need more of a blow to get going so am I likely to get much use out in average southern North Sea area where I sailing most? I don't think i'dbe happy if i'll be finding myself motorsailing more often than not.....

As a rule of thumb most summer sailing in Uk water is in winds F3 or less. I know of one sailing school boat (custom built steel hull) where the Principle specified a taller rig (more sail area) in order counter this light wind issue.

So, according to your criteria I would not be inclined to go for a heavy, fuller keel type vessel as it is likely that you may find you will be motoring along quite a bit.

The Southern North Sea (compared to the Firth of Clyde) will have more tidal current influence which will dictate the time you have to be at a certain point. A lighter boat, in a lighter wind, will sail you there faster than a heavy boat i.e. you will have to motor more on the heavy boat to reach those tidal gates.

Bavaria Yachts, for example, are very keenly priced and you can get a quality yacht, fully fitted out, second hand, which you can step on and sail away in, knowing that they will sail well light winds. You can then cut your teeth faster in such a boat.

I have sailed thousands of miles around the British Coastline and heavy displacement stood me well in rough conditions and it is my style of choice. However, I have taught sailing for many of these miles in lighter, modern hulls which are faster and just as safe. When the wind and waves were up I never had any worries in these lighter boats. Hence my recommendation based on your post would be to consider a lighter, modern hull.

There is one other point which I believe that Tranona may have been eluding too; if the heavy displacement hull is on an ageing lady, the maintenance costs will be high, dont underestimate the costs and time required to service these old ladies.

The good thing about a yacht such as a Bavaria is that after a couple of seasons they will sell quite easily, should you decide that the style is not for you.

 

[alant]

As a rule of thumb most summer sailing in Uk water is in winds F3 or less. I know of one sailing school boat (custom built steel hull) where the Principle specified a taller rig (more sail area) in order counter this light wind issue.

So, according to your criteria I would not be inclined to go for a heavy, fuller keel type vessel as it is likely that you may find you will be motoring along quite a bit.

The Southern North Sea (compared to the Firth of Clyde) will have more tidal current influence which will dictate the time you have to be at a certain point. A lighter boat, in a lighter wind, will sail you there faster than a heavy boat i.e. you will have to motor more on the heavy boat to reach those tidal gates.

Bavaria Yachts, for example, are very keenly priced and you can get a quality yacht, fully fitted out, second hand, which you can step on and sail away in, knowing that they will sail well light winds. You can then cut your teeth faster in such a boat.

I have sailed thousands of miles around the British Coastline and heavy displacement stood me well in rough conditions and it is my style of choice. However, I have taught sailing for many of these miles in lighter, modern hulls which are faster and just as safe. When the wind and waves were up I never had any worries in these lighter boats. Hence my recommendation based on your post would be to consider a lighter, modern hull.

There is one other point which I believe that Tranona may have been eluding too; if the heavy displacement hull is on an ageing lady, the maintenance costs will be high, dont underestimate the costs and time required to service these old ladies.

The good thing about a yacht such as a Bavaria is that after a couple of seasons they will sell quite easily, should you decide that the style is not for you.

"Bavaria Yachts, for example, are very keenly priced and you can get a quality yacht,"

Oxymoron surely!

 

[Tranona]

"Bavaria Yachts, for example, are very keenly priced and you can get a quality yacht,"

Oxymoron surely!

Not at all! If you own one you will know what he is saying. Quality is fitness for purpose, and give me my Bavaria any day of the week rather than most other boats I could buy for the same money - which is why I still own it after 10 years hard life.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

As a rule of thumb most summer sailing in Uk water is in winds F3 or less. I know of one sailing school boat (custom built steel hull) where the Principle specified a taller rig (more sail area) in order counter this light wind issue.

So, according to your criteria I would not be inclined to go for a heavy, fuller keel type vessel as it is likely that you may find you will be motoring along quite a bit.

The Southern North Sea (compared to the Firth of Clyde) will have more tidal current influence which will dictate the time you have to be at a certain point. A lighter boat, in a lighter wind, will sail you there faster than a heavy boat i.e. you will have to motor more on the heavy boat to reach those tidal gates.

Bavaria Yachts, for example, are very keenly priced and you can get a quality yacht, fully fitted out, second hand, which you can step on and sail away in, knowing that they will sail well light winds. You can then cut your teeth faster in such a boat.

I have sailed thousands of miles around the British Coastline and heavy displacement stood me well in rough conditions and it is my style of choice. However, I have taught sailing for many of these miles in lighter, modern hulls which are faster and just as safe. When the wind and waves were up I never had any worries in these lighter boats. Hence my recommendation based on your post would be to consider a lighter, modern hull.

There is one other point which I believe that Tranona may have been eluding too; if the heavy displacement hull is on an ageing lady, the maintenance costs will be high, dont underestimate the costs and time required to service these old ladies.

The good thing about a yacht such as a Bavaria is that after a couple of seasons they will sell quite easily, should you decide that the style is not for you.

Much of what you say holds good but you could well ask a certain forumite who sails a Bavaria 31 why he could not catch or pass me in my Vancouver 34 several days ago sailing in about 10knts of true wind a little free about 55 degrees off again true wind making 4 to 5 knts under all plain white sail and stories of fouled bottom don't hold up we are berthed within 50meters of each other he freshly antifouled and me scrubbed of 1 year old antifoul at the same time give or take so long keelers can make reasonable way in lightish airs. Much below 8 knots though particularly close hauled and it's donk time off the wind though with appropriate sails no real problems.

 

[E39mad]

A long keeler with a large prop appeture can actually be fairly good at going astern - I could get the Vancouver 34 to go either direction astern on many an occassion - yes kicks better one way but don't they all!

 

[Fr J Hackett]

A long keeler with a large prop appeture can actually be fairly good at going astern - I could get the Vancouver 34 to go either direction astern on many an occassion - yes kicks better one way but don't they all!

+1

 

[jonic]

A Tradewind 35, or Victoria, Vancouver, Westerlies and Moodys etc are all great sea boats but will probably need more immediate maintenance as they will be older.

Owners tend to love them though.

 

[alant]

A Tradewind 35, or Victoria, Vancouver, Westerlies and Moodys etc are all great sea boats but will probably need more immediate maintenance as they will be older.

Owners tend to love them though.

At least they are built well enough, to get older, which is not yet proven with regard to some AWB's.

 

[Tranona]

At least they are built well enough, to get older, which is not yet proven with regard to some AWB's.

Suggest you look at the numerous magazine reviews of secondhand AWBs some of which have been more than 20 years old. The findings simply do not support what you say. There are invariably complements on how well the boats have stood up to hard lives.

Also you only have to read these fora for a few months to know that many of the older boats have not fared too well.

Give me a well engineered modern boat over an old boat put together in a shed in poorly controlled conditions any day of the week (not that all older boats are like that, but many were).

I would put my 10 year old boat that has done more miles than most boats 3 times its age up against any mass market boat from 20-30 years ago.

 

[Babylon]

The OPs original question was about whether a Tradewind 35 is suitable for a relative beginner in the North Sea, rather than whether older heavy long keelers are better or worse yachts than younger fin keelers.

I don't know about the North Sea, but I was a beginner on a heavy long keeler in the Solent four yrs ago... and I haven't hit anything yet.

It was rather funny though, on my first ever passage as skipper of my new-to-me boat, as we drifted gently under control onto a raft in Yarmouth harbour on a balmy Saturday afternoon, I casually announced to the folks lazing - drinks in hand - in their boats all around that "I've never done this before" and was amazed at how many people were suddenly galvanized into action...