Poey50
Well-Known Member
Plus you've provided a valuable service in putting your experience out there. It has certainly made me think more about it. Thank you.
First Pan Pan experience
- Thread starter jamieo
- Start date
Plus you've provided a valuable service in putting your experience out there. It has certainly made me think more about it. Thank you.
You have not "quoted" sources, you simply named two international organizations and assumed they supported your line of argument.
I decided to do the research on your behalf and now realise why you were reluctant to offer a proper quote, the so called definitive documents are of little help in resolving the debates about whether a Pan-Pan is a distress call and was Pan-Pan the best call for the OP's original situation. I hope the OP is not offended by this continuing debate which is not a comment on the decisions he made and instead has become an academic debate on VHF emergency usage.
The ITU document is hopeless, it is a turgid operations manual that assumes emergency signals have been issued and covers what should happen next. I don't suppose it is a surprise that an org called the International Telecommunication Union based in Switzerland which predated Ferranti is not exactly the font of wisdom and clarity on modern maritime VHF procedure. The IMO's IAMSAR is not much better, I found a shoddy document containing ambiguity plus a tacked on appendix which further confuses the ambiguity in the main document as I shall explain.
http://www.szabadsolyom.hu/skipper/doc/IAMSARMANUAL.pdf
The most interesting discovery in the IAMSAR doc is the structure of the contents hierarchy of section 4 indicates that the GOV.UK document I referenced is in fact correct to described PAN-PAN as a type of distress alert to be used for some onboard emergencies.
Page 112
In the lowest level section "Spoken Emergency Signals and Procedural Words" the document then contradicts the contents hierarchy by stating there are three types of err? distress alerts called "Distress", "Urgency" and "Safety" to be used in err? "emergencies". This represents a whole lot of self contradiction but is at least consistent with ChannelYacht's preaching on the subject.
I don't think a Jury could return a majority verdict at this point in the debate given that the so-called authoritative international document appears to be the font of all confusion on this subject.
I had hoped that Appendix A "Distress Messages - Obligations and Procedures" in this document might help resolve matters through proof by induction, unfortunately this appendix is not specific and only refers to distress "signal" or "distress alert". Since the only definition of a "distress alert" is the section heading describing MayMay, Pan-Pan and Security, it is reasonable and logical to conclude that on hearing a Pan-Pan a vessel has heard a type of distress call, is obliged to treat the signal as a call for help due to an emergency onboard and consider what assistance might be rendered. This is the working definition of a Pan-Pan used by many in this thread.
All of the above is of course null & void as soon as a vessel enters the maritime fantasy-land within broadcast range of Solent Coastguard.
So what is the leisure yachtsman to do? Numerous organizations junior to these great international fonts of confusion have attempted to bring some sanity to the situation mostly through example and analogy. Apparently we should ignore the advice of the British Government on this matter which is allegedly inaccurate even though the author of the Government web pages seems to have actually read the IAMSAR document. So that leaves the RYA I guess.
I found the following advice to be most useful with the exception of MOB being Pan-Pan category situation which is wrong given British water temperatures.
http://captainmichael94.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/declaring-emergency-mayday-vs-pan-pan.html
In summary I hope I have proven through multiple expert and authoritative external references that Pan-Pan is a category of distress message issued due to an an onboard emergency and it also seems we are legally obliged to listen to the details and consider what help we can offer.
dslittle
Well-Known Member
Some people really have too much time on their hands...
Resolution
Well-Known Member
Young man, when you get to my age this about all that is left to us...........................................
..............in between monitoring the rise in value of our houses, how on earth to spend all our gold-plated pensions and which wine to draw from the cellar for tonight.
Why would anyone on a yachting forum waste time trying to clarify what to say in an emergency when there are far more import subjects such as using Tunnocks teacakes as a source of sustenance at sea.
Bru
Well-Known Member
I think this thread demonstrates the lack of clarity in the official documents and in the training, literature etc. as to exactly what a Pan Pan is and what it is used for
Mayday and Securite are clearly defined, Pan Pan markedly less so
For my money, so to speak, Pan Pan means "I've got a problem. I don't need the lifeboat launched and the SAR helo scrambled right now but I either may need some help later or I need some advice and I don't want to be sent to a working channel and told to standby whilst the Coasties deal with routine traffic until it's my turn"
So when we lost our headsail and then our engine in short order in a 5 gusting 6 to 7 when we were 5 miles off a lee shore with a narrow and awfully solid harbour entrance and a 2 to 3 knot cross tide to boot to negotiate to get to the nearest safe haven, damn straight I issued a "Pan Pan" 'cos I had limited manoeuvrability and would need assistance to make port. Assistance in the form of a tow by a commercial SAR RIB was duly organised by Oostende Coastguard and most grateful we were too (even if it did cost me my beer kitty for several months to come)
And when, a year earlier, we ran aground (mea culpa) on a steep to sandbank and a falling tide, that too was a "Pan Pan" 'cos I was desperately hoping some kind soul in the vicinity would come and tow us off! (Luckily we slid off into deeper water without assistance). Had the coastguard heard our transmission (they didn't, we had a duff antenna) and sent the Burnham ILB out I wouldn't have felt guilty about it - although given that I know several of the crew it might have been a tads embarrassing!
Now with the benefit of knowing the outcome, from my armchair (or saloon settee actually) yes I can see why folks would suggest the OP's situation did not warrant a Pan Pan. In truth, it probably didn't. But I for one am not going to criticise the OP for issuing a Pan Pan. If it seemed like the right thing to do at the time, it was the right thing to do at the time. Nobody gets hurt as a result of a Pan Pan that could have been routine traffic, the only inconvenience is that the wibble on the VHF has to shut up for a while
Mayday and Securite are clearly defined, Pan Pan markedly less so
For my money, so to speak, Pan Pan means "I've got a problem. I don't need the lifeboat launched and the SAR helo scrambled right now but I either may need some help later or I need some advice and I don't want to be sent to a working channel and told to standby whilst the Coasties deal with routine traffic until it's my turn"
So when we lost our headsail and then our engine in short order in a 5 gusting 6 to 7 when we were 5 miles off a lee shore with a narrow and awfully solid harbour entrance and a 2 to 3 knot cross tide to boot to negotiate to get to the nearest safe haven, damn straight I issued a "Pan Pan" 'cos I had limited manoeuvrability and would need assistance to make port. Assistance in the form of a tow by a commercial SAR RIB was duly organised by Oostende Coastguard and most grateful we were too (even if it did cost me my beer kitty for several months to come)
And when, a year earlier, we ran aground (mea culpa) on a steep to sandbank and a falling tide, that too was a "Pan Pan" 'cos I was desperately hoping some kind soul in the vicinity would come and tow us off! (Luckily we slid off into deeper water without assistance). Had the coastguard heard our transmission (they didn't, we had a duff antenna) and sent the Burnham ILB out I wouldn't have felt guilty about it - although given that I know several of the crew it might have been a tads embarrassing!
Now with the benefit of knowing the outcome, from my armchair (or saloon settee actually) yes I can see why folks would suggest the OP's situation did not warrant a Pan Pan. In truth, it probably didn't. But I for one am not going to criticise the OP for issuing a Pan Pan. If it seemed like the right thing to do at the time, it was the right thing to do at the time. Nobody gets hurt as a result of a Pan Pan that could have been routine traffic, the only inconvenience is that the wibble on the VHF has to shut up for a while
Fantasie 19
Well-Known Member
I think this thread demonstrates the lack of clarity in the official documents and in the training, literature etc. as to exactly what a Pan Pan is and what it is used for
Mayday and Securite are clearly defined, Pan Pan markedly less so
For my money, so to speak, Pan Pan means "I've got a problem. I don't need the lifeboat launched and the SAR helo scrambled right now but I either may need some help later or I need some advice and I don't want to be sent to a working channel and told to standby whilst the Coasties deal with routine traffic until it's my turn"
So when we lost our headsail and then our engine in short order in a 5 gusting 6 to 7 when we were 5 miles off a lee shore with a narrow and awfully solid harbour entrance and a 2 to 3 knot cross tide to boot to negotiate to get to the nearest safe haven, damn straight I issued a "Pan Pan" 'cos I had limited manoeuvrability and would need assistance to make port. Assistance in the form of a tow by a commercial SAR RIB was duly organised by Oostende Coastguard and most grateful we were too (even if it did cost me my beer kitty for several months to come)
And when, a year earlier, we ran aground (mea culpa) on a steep to sandbank and a falling tide, that too was a "Pan Pan" 'cos I was desperately hoping some kind soul in the vicinity would come and tow us off! (Luckily we slid off into deeper water without assistance). Had the coastguard heard our transmission (they didn't, we had a duff antenna) and sent the Burnham ILB out I wouldn't have felt guilty about it - although given that I know several of the crew it might have been a tads embarrassing!
Now with the benefit of knowing the outcome, from my armchair (or saloon settee actually) yes I can see why folks would suggest the OP's situation did not warrant a Pan Pan. In truth, it probably didn't. But I for one am not going to criticise the OP for issuing a Pan Pan. If it seemed like the right thing to do at the time, it was the right thing to do at the time. Nobody gets hurt as a result of a Pan Pan that could have been routine traffic, the only inconvenience is that the wibble on the VHF has to shut up for a while
Well said.... sums up my thoughts...
Next topic... if you hear a Pan Pan and your are in the vicinity, what would you do? What are you required to do?
This is the most balanced contribution to the thread so far.I think this thread demonstrates the lack of clarity in the official documents and in the training, literature etc. as to exactly what a Pan Pan is and what it is used for
Mayday and Securite are clearly defined, Pan Pan markedly less so
For my money, so to speak, Pan Pan means "I've got a problem. I don't need the lifeboat launched and the SAR helo scrambled right now but I either may need some help later or I need some advice and I don't want to be sent to a working channel and told to standby whilst the Coasties deal with routine traffic until it's my turn"
...
Now with the benefit of knowing the outcome, from my armchair (or saloon settee actually) yes I can see why folks would suggest the OP's situation did not warrant a Pan Pan. In truth, it probably didn't. But I for one am not going to criticise the OP for issuing a Pan Pan. If it seemed like the right thing to do at the time, it was the right thing to do at the time. Nobody gets hurt as a result of a Pan Pan that could have been routine traffic, the only inconvenience is that the wibble on the VHF has to shut up for a while
The one issue being overlooked in this discussion is the demand that issuing a Pan-Pan places on 3rd parties within reception range. It would be useful to hear a truly authoritative opinion on whether marine law or tradition requires that a amateur skipper and crew of a British Registered 35ft sailing yacht is obliged to listen to every Pan-Pan and make a considered decision whether to offer help. A strict interpretation of the IAMSAR doc I referenced is that on hearing a Pan-Pan the ships log should contain an entry describing why the master of the vessel decided not to offer help following a Pan-Pan.
Whatever the regional British interpretation of Pan-Pan, leisure skippers need to be aware that in other countries issuing a Pan-Pan can be costly in financial terms. Unlike the British Coastguard foreign Coastguard stations perform their own assessment of a leisure boat Pan-Pan call and could hand off resolution to a commercial contractor where they see fit. In another recent thread we heard that in Greece the authorities could descend and demand a costly survey post incident.
Bru
Well-Known Member
Authoritative sources being thin on the ground, my personal take on a pan pan is that the message does not (normally) end with "immediate assistance required" and by the very definition of a pan pan there is no immediate threat to life. Therefore, in my 'umble, there is no legal duty to offer assistance
In theory, every radio transmission sent and received should be written up in the radio log just as every decision regarding navigation and operation of the vessel should be written up in the ships log. So it doesn't surprise me to learn that masters are expected to log the reason(s) for not responding to Pan Pan.
Does that imply an obligation to respond to a Pan Pan? It's not explicit but it could be inferred that there is an expectation that nearby vessels will assist unless there is good reason not to. Just my supposition though!
As for cost, tell me about it! I knew it was going to hit my wallet hard before I picked up the mic off Nieuwpoort. Safety first however, above all other considerations
In theory, every radio transmission sent and received should be written up in the radio log just as every decision regarding navigation and operation of the vessel should be written up in the ships log. So it doesn't surprise me to learn that masters are expected to log the reason(s) for not responding to Pan Pan.
Does that imply an obligation to respond to a Pan Pan? It's not explicit but it could be inferred that there is an expectation that nearby vessels will assist unless there is good reason not to. Just my supposition though!
As for cost, tell me about it! I knew it was going to hit my wallet hard before I picked up the mic off Nieuwpoort. Safety first however, above all other considerations
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
I thought that it was a size up from a baguette :ambivalence:
chanelyacht
Well-Known Member
More nonsense, plenty of incidents have resulted in SeaStart, nearby vessels, or a commercial tow being arranged. I've often done it myself.
You really should try and understand more about how it all works.
Fantasie 19
Well-Known Member
Bru and I would still like some edification on "if you hear a Pan Pan and your are in the vicinity, what would you do? What are you required to do?"
Uricanejack
Well-Known Member
When I hear Pan Pan,
I feel I have a traditional and moral obligation to respond as best I can provided it does not endanger my vessel or crew. The actual legal requirements may be less or more.
You have to be able to look in the mirror and look yourself in the eye afterwards.
Pan Pan puts an obligation on any vessel hearing. Safety of Life at sea. who knows one day I may have to make a call myself.
If you judge the call, and decide to ignore. how do you feel later? depends how it works out.
Truth is I do Judge calls I hear, even May Days. Even so I always listen for a response. I appreciate the professional response from a RCC in the Coast Guard. They apply triage. I will help out if I can. I don't hesitate to divert.
I routinely quietly let RCC know my location and rough ETA. If need I get tasked, if not I stand down.
The RNLI is a unique luxury UK boaters are very luck to have. They don't ask for payment.
I feel I have a traditional and moral obligation to respond as best I can provided it does not endanger my vessel or crew. The actual legal requirements may be less or more.
You have to be able to look in the mirror and look yourself in the eye afterwards.
Pan Pan puts an obligation on any vessel hearing. Safety of Life at sea. who knows one day I may have to make a call myself.
If you judge the call, and decide to ignore. how do you feel later? depends how it works out.
Truth is I do Judge calls I hear, even May Days. Even so I always listen for a response. I appreciate the professional response from a RCC in the Coast Guard. They apply triage. I will help out if I can. I don't hesitate to divert.
I routinely quietly let RCC know my location and rough ETA. If need I get tasked, if not I stand down.
The RNLI is a unique luxury UK boaters are very luck to have. They don't ask for payment.
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STATUE
Well-Known Member
Well done you.
We hear so much of yacht crews instantly calling the RNLI for minor issues without attempting their own salvation.
Of course the RNLI do not comment on these people, but reading between the lines of their formal reports its clear that you have given such individuals a beacon of determination to follow.
Brilliant.
We hear so much of yacht crews instantly calling the RNLI for minor issues without attempting their own salvation.
Of course the RNLI do not comment on these people, but reading between the lines of their formal reports its clear that you have given such individuals a beacon of determination to follow.
Brilliant.
Technically speaking it is the Coastguard that calls on their service.
ShinyShoe
Well-Known Member
This is your obligation according to SOLAS:
... the master of a ship at sea which is in a position to be able to provide assistance, on receiving a signal from any source that persons are in distress at sea, is bound to proceed with all speed to their assistance, if possible informing them or the search and rescue service that the ship is doing so. (bold is minde)
So firstly the immediate questions on hearing any kind of emergency have to be "Am I in a position to provide assistance". I don't think that JUST means geographically. I think it means 'able to'. So for instance:
Another yacht is half a mile away from you and needs some help. One of his crew is unconscious and needs medevaced. Geographically you can help. You have a doctor on board as one of your crew of 6 and the sea state would let you send him over. Sounds very sensible that you assist.
Another yacht is half a mile away from you and needs some help. One of his crew is unconscious and needs medevaced. Geographically you can help. You are single handing your yacht. The boat needing assistance is in too deep water for you to anchor. They seem to know what they are doing medically. Its far less clear what assistance you could give.
A yacht is half a mile away from you, on your RIB, and needs some help. One of his crew is unconscious and needs medevaced. Geographically you can help, you'd be able to take the casualty ashore if that was appropriate. You are single handing your RIB but they have spare crew who could come with you. You could assist.
A cruise liner is half a mile away from you, on your RIB, and needs some help. One of his crew is unconscious and needs medevaced. Geographically you can help, you'd be able to take the casualty ashore if that was appropriate, but its probably far less clear how you'd get the casualty on your rib. You are single handing your RIB but they have spare crew who could come with you. Unless the cruise liner is somewhere really remote that means other assistance via a chopper or lifeboat is not going to work I think its unlikely you should assist.
A cruise liner is half a mile away from you, on your RIB, and has lost someone overboard. You should assist.
All of those examples are probably Mayday in nature. But the SOLAS statement doesn't say Mayday, it says distress. A mayday is a distress. But if a 10 year old has just lost his Dad overboard on a yacht and only manages to press the PTT on the VHF and say "Help my dad just went overboard 1 mile west of the needles" if you were in a RIB 2 miles west of the needles would you shrug your shoulders and say to your crew - I think we should wait while to coastguard do all their chat and launch lifeboats and helo's etc and then only if they come back with a Mayday Relay will we get involved? Or would you hit the throttle and get there as quick as you could? In which case the pro-word chosen by the casualty vessel is rather irrelevant is it not - if you are in a position to assist should you not at least offer to do so? The different pro-words just say to you the urgency and level of assistance needed may be very different. You might for instance carry on on your current course while you make contact and offer to assist a Pan whereas a Mayday that you think sounds genuinely dangerous you may already be dropping sails etc possibly even before the initial call has finished!
Its a spectrum of issues. From letting the CG know something is not quite going to plan through to asking for all possible assistance to reduce the numbers who will die... ...there will always be those who think a routine call should be a pan or vice versa and those who think a mayday is a pan or vice versa. We even get the debate if some maydays are really such... ...thinking MOB's where there is a common view that a MOB is always a mayday, but people will come with answers when its not (dinghy sailors, such shallow water they are already stood up and walking out etc.)
If you hear a Mayday for an engine failure and are thinking "Why not anchor, or use your sails etc" - I'd expect you'd still be thinking am I in a position to assist? But the question would be what assistance are they actually seeking...Perhaps they are only 15 metres from rocks in 10 metres of water and think anchoring wont work because the rode length will be too long. But for your assistance to help with that you are going to need to be VERY close...
This rather long post to what seems a simple question is actually trying to say: if you think someone needs help - irrelevant of the pro-word they used on their call - surely all you need to be able to do is justify why you DID NOT offer to help. Thats clearly easier when you get ashore to say I didn't think my 20footer would two the 50footer than to say I wasn't sure if I'd found the MOB I could have got him back on deck so I sailed home and kept my head down.
A rather long post which demonstrates you do not know whether a Pan-Pan call is officially deemed to be a category of distress call.
The SOLAS doc I linked to refers to obligations on receipt of a "distress alert" and elsewhere Mayday and Pan-Pan are grouped under the sub heading of distress alerts. You paint a picture of a world where ever skipper has to analyse all VHF traffic and determine if an emergency/distress situation is being described which begs the question, for what purpose were the distress pro-word defined in the first place.
I think you are something in the RNLI? Would it not be more honest and constructive to concede that ambiguity exists in official sources and propose a pragmatic working interpretation rather than bluff on behalf of dysfunctional international regulators?
Robin
Well-Known Member
It was a very long time ago but we heard a Pan Pan some miles NE of Ushant from a wooden British power boat ( Welsh Princess) that was on fire, it gave a position some 8 miles NE from us and in the eastbound shipping lane between Ushant and Casquets TSS zones , we were headed SW. The position given was stated as being 2 hrs old and they had been 'steaming at 'n' knots on heading 'xyz' It took me a while to plot a possible position but when i did and got the binos I coul see smoke over the horizon in that direction. It would have taken us overan hour to get there and we did not have 'fire pumps' to aid them, which is what their call was asking for. in the event, the boat sank, there was no mayday put out but the crew had subsequently taken to a liferaft when the boat sank ( no handheld VHF) and were picked up by a German freighter who had the incident visual. CROSS meanwhile had launched a helo that flew low over us on it's way to the scene but CROSS were still transmitting the original vague position data ( despite being told the ship 'had them visual'. We monitored the radio but had resumed our original course as the ship reported having recovered the crew, safe and sound. there ensued a long discussion, all on ch16, with CROSS ( French CG) insisting that the German ship must take the rescued people to a French Port for paperwork completion, robustly refused
by Herr kapitan who said he would put them ashore at his next port of call.
It was a wake-up call to me and I bought my first handheld VHF soon after to put in the grab bag.
by Herr kapitan who said he would put them ashore at his next port of call. It was a wake-up call to me and I bought my first handheld VHF soon after to put in the grab bag.
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capnsensible
Well-Known Member
Three calls of pan-pan are used in radiotelephone communications[1][2][3] to signify that there is an urgency on board a boat, ship, aircraft, or other vehicle but that, for the time being at least, there is no immediate danger to anyone's life or to the vessel itself.[4] This is referred to as a state of urgency. This is distinct from a mayday call, which means that there is imminent danger to life or to the continued viability of the vessel itself.[5] Thus "pan-pan" informs potential rescuers (including emergency services and other craft in the area) that a safety problem exists whereas "mayday" will call upon them to drop all other activities and immediately initiate a rescue attempt.
Can't really see what is ambiguous there, really.
However, the World Radio Conference is held every 3 to 4 years so I am sure at the next one, you can prepare and deliver a paper to the full time pros who work the radio spectrum daily to explain just how inept they are and provide a working plan to re organise.
http://www.itu.int/en/ITU-R/conferences/wrc/Pages/default.aspx
Good luck. I look forward to it. :encouragement:
SimonFa
Well-Known Member
I not only have one in my grab bag but I have a handheld DSC radio tethered to my LJ and clipped to my trousers as well as a PLB in my pocket which is also tethered to my LJ,
