First boat, big boat.

[Blue5]

A view from someone without any dingy experience.

My wife, Maria, and I wanted to learn something new together and took an introduction to sail weekend. We loved it and had a hunger to learn as much as possible. Over the following six months we became competent crew but didn't get an opportunity to go out unless we were paying a sea school - that wasn't a major problem because we had a lot to learn. We continued our education and decided that we wanted a yacht of our own so that we weren't constrained by mass teaching on a school boat and could enjoy the benefits of ownership - it's lovely sitting in the cockpit on a summer's evening . We engaged a very good instructor who helped us to understand our boat better and has taken us through to Day Skipper. Even after we had this certificate, we still asked for his company on our first cross-channel jaunt. We were fine but we wanted to have someone there making sure we didn’t make any silly mistakes. We also invite anyone with experience to come on board and show us how they would sail the boat.

At no stage do we profess to know everything. We bought a 45ft yacht and after a year added a bowthruster for emergencies (or mistakes) but we are perfectly capable of controlling our craft without it. We have a couple of scratches but we have not damaged anyone else’s pride and joy. We also learn from our mistakes by understanding what we did wrong and making sure we don’t do it again including being in the Channel when it has been blowing a force 9 but despite informing the coastguard, we managed the situation on our own and got in safely.

I am concerned that in this sport there appears to be a sense of one-upmanship because of the way people come into Sailing or whether they have an AWB. I shouldn’t even mention whether they have a bowthruster! Fortunately, I have found that when we meet people, as opposed to communicating over the internet, they are very friendly and are keen to offer advice to people who want to listen and learn.

Maria and I have plans to travel the world and we are doing as much research as possible including the cruising association, various book/websites and the experiences of friends we have made. We are looking at five years of preparation which includes us furthering our education through to yachtmaster and setting up our Dufour.

To answer, the OP. I believe that you do need to learn but that does not mean you need to go through a prescribed route. The most important factors are a willingness to learn and a thorough understanding of your own capabilities and no over-confidence. If the original question had concerned people with no knowledge, buying a large yacht or motor boat and then sailing it with no training then I would be very concerned and would agree that it wasn’t safe. Unfortunately we have all met that type but that doesn’t mean that all of us late-comers to the sport should be tainted with the same brush.

Excellant post, pretty much our situation, discovered sailing with SWMBO seven years ago, after a lot of learning and sailing we did our first Biscay crossing last year.

Would loved to have discovered the joys thirty years ago, sadly now at our time of life the dinghy route would have been a non starter.

 

[photodog]

Two things..

Forty k is barely enough to buy a decent motor home nowadays... And will not buy you a big shiny new awb. Forty k will get you a modest, say 30-32 foot early 00's awb... Why any normal person would want to go out and buy a MAB when for the cost of a modest motor home they could get something with a decent heads and a easy to handle rig is beyond me.....

It ain't rocket science. Let's not kid ourselves... Whilst its good to start off in dingy's to learn about the basics of sailing....what we do is not as special as we make out. In fact... It's perfectly within The reach of a normal person with a bit of night school and a few weekends practice.


So forty k on a 30 foot used benjenbav as a first boat is perfectly reasonable, in fact is pretty modest.

 

[Seajet]

Or a person with knowledge, taste and not too big a requirement for a tardis could get a thoroughbred which will both give them a permanent grin and look after them, like a Contessa 32 !

 

[photodog]

Or a person with knowledge, taste and not too big a requirement for a tardis could get a thoroughbred which will both give them a permanent grin and look after them, like a Contessa 32 !

Well, we all love the contessas, it a very beautiful boat... But let's face the facts..

It's wet.
It's slow.
It's cramped.
The heads is antisocial.
It's old.
Most smell bad.
It's not attractive to guests.


It's just not swmbo friendly, people want a bit of comfort. Nothing wrong with that.

We looked at contessas before we bought.... Also looked at a she 36.. Nicholson 345.... But at the end of the day, I wanted to keep the missus happy, and didn't fancy living in crapitude and discomfort.

So we bought a modest awb instead.

 

[Seajet]

Well, we all love the contessas, it a very beautiful boat... But let's face the facts..

It's wet.
It's slow.
It's cramped.
The heads is antisocial.
It's old.
Most smell bad.
It's not attractive to guests.


It's just not swmbo friendly, people want a bit of comfort. Nothing wrong with that.

We looked at contessas before we bought.... Also looked at a she 36.. Nicholson 345.... But at the end of the day, I wanted to keep the missus happy, and didn't fancy living in crapitude and discomfort.

So we bought a modest awb instead.

Everything is relative re comfort, and I would rather be on a Co 32 ( or for that matter Anderson 22 though very different in some ways, but she keeps going ) than some lard arsed Boat Show Boat with 3 double aft cabins all en suite !

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Apologies, but my first boat was a new Rustler 36 and I was over 40 when I bought it.

Never sailed a dinghy in my life.

Clearly I must be a rubbish sailor.

Yes, my wind awareness was not as good as someone who came out of the womb with a Laser mainsheet in their hands, but there is another side to the coin.

I have sailed with many like that and most of them had no idea how to navigate without writing anything down, how to start an engine that isn't cooperating, how to give first aid to an injured crewmate, how to safely maintain a vessel and how to manage a team.

I would much rather sail on a cruising vessel with someone who is good at all these other things. If they do not have the skill to sail their big boat into a harbour unassisted by engine that's fine with me. Most harbours won't allow it anyway and I would rather they anchored outside than misjudged things and damaged my boat or someone else proving their sailing pedigree.

I would rate a dinghy sailing background as a "nice to have" but not as an alternative, or a priority over the other areas I mentioned.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

Everything is relative re comfort, and I would rather be on a Co 32 ( or for that matter Anderson 22 though very different in some ways, but she keeps going ) than some lard arsed Boat Show Boat with 3 double aft cabins all en suite !

Sail on your own by any chance Seajet?...

 

[Tranona]

Or a person with knowledge, taste and not too big a requirement for a tardis could get a thoroughbred which will both give them a permanent grin and look after them, like a Contessa 32 !

It might make you grin, but would make me grimace! Seems you really have difficulty in understanding that people do not always want what you want, and in this particular case, nobody makes boats like that anymore, which suggests that its appeal is limited.

It is nothing to do with taste, or knowledge, it is to do with buying something that meets your requirements and for many (most?) people boats that you deride are far more suited to their requirements. I am perfectly aware of what a CO 32 is about, having been around when they were the bee knees, but I would not buy one because it does not suit my needs.

There is an honesty about buying what suits rather than worrying about what other people think of your choice.

 

[Robert Wilson]

In another thread on another forum, a newcomer to our noble sport seeks assurances on boating costs and what a £40K vessel will cost to keep. I dunno, but it does all seem odd to me. I suppose many come to sailing somewhat in the manner of that poster - I see them in my marina with yachts that were bought on something close to a whim with immediate gratification of buying something grand and big enough to accommodate the whole family as a first boat.

It's just that £40K sounds a lot for a first time buy - at least it does to this ancient who painfully crawled his way, hand over hand, up the boating ladder from dinghies through small cruisers to slightly larger ones. And all because, at a tender age, he witnessed a small open boat being superbly sailed into a Georgian Bay harbour in Canada - it came in fast, running before a gale of a wind and rounded up to a wall perfectly stationary to put a line ashore.That scene is as vivid now as it was over 50 years ago. It blew my mind and I knew I had to sail. From that moment on I planned and schemed how I could do so; read every book I could find on sailing and the sea; got afloat on others' boats whenever I could and saved every penny that I could squirrel away from my modest salary - even selling everything and anything I could to build up a boat fund. I changed my job and reduced my career prospects just to be near the sea and a harbour where I dreamed I would moor my boat. And it worked, I did get my boat and the passion has never passed, even if my circumstances, boat and sailing area has.

Of course, times have changed and disposable incomes have risen exponentially since when I was young. But I wouldn't change anything - my small boat experiences taught me as nothing else could how wind and water react on a hull, how to competently sail and navigate long before modern technologies arrived to give us a precise position at the touch of a button.

I know I'm a relic who sounds as though I resent the changes - but I don't, I think it great that so many can now get afloat and take their families with them. But is it too easy, does it not attract some for all the wrong reasons? Wouldn't it be better for them to do it all more gradually - taking longer to learn it all more thoroughly?

Preparing to be shot down in flames for elitist tendencies, but interested in any thoughts on the subject ...

Reminds me of (true) incident on Ullswater many years ago. A friend and his wife, both fairly new to sailing were reaching magnificently away from and back towards the clubhouse in a very stiff breeze, in their Enterprise.
After a while of very fast planing to-and-fro it was obvious to bystanders that the pair were coming in to end their exhilarating sail.
In they came, in they came and still in they came. All on shore were amazed at the helmsman's novice confidence and ability at a forthcoming spectacular "round up into the wind" and shore-side stop.
On they came, still planing, helm and crew leaning far out.
BUMP, WHOOSH, CRUNCH.
Out of the water, onto the shingle, across many yards of lawn and whammed into the clubhouse!!
Skipper and crew stepped-out of dinghy to rounds of cheers and applause.

 

[Bobc]

Well I have to disagree with some view here I'm afraid.

Although dinghy sailing does give you good boat handling skills and a good feel for the wind direction, it doesn't really teach you what you need to know to run and sail a big boat, so much of which is less about the pure "sailing" and more about navigation, an understanding of your surroundings, safety, etc.

I think (as a dinghy sailor) that it does perhaps breed is a good yacht racer, but not necessarily a good cruising yachtsman.

And also let's face it, most of us started in dinghies because that's all we could afford and had the ability to access at the time.

To my mind there's no wrong or right. I've known people who consistantly set their sails wrongly but are safe, good yachters. I've also known good dinghy sailors who are a complete nightmare on a big boat.

£40k is not that much realtive to other capital assets, and anyone who wants to join our sport should be welcomed, and it is the responsibility of those of us who have the experience to help these people gain the knowledge that we have accumulated over the years.

Since bringing the boat home last year, I have to say that I have found the attitudes of other yachties in this country to be somewhat "selective". If your boat is too small or too big, the wrong make, or if you don't have the right background or wear the right brand of clothing, then you can't be "one of us". What a load of snobbish BS.

 

[AMCD300]

Well I have to disagree with some view here I'm afraid.

Although dinghy sailing does give you good boat handling skills and a good feel for the wind direction, it doesn't really teach you what you need to know to run and sail a big boat, so much of which is less about the pure "sailing" and more about navigation, an understanding of your surroundings, safety, etc.

I think (as a dinghy sailor) that it does perhaps breed is a good yacht racer, but not necessarily a good cruising yachtsman.

And also let's face it, most of us started in dinghies because that's all we could afford and had the ability to access at the time.

To my mind there's no wrong or right. I've known people who consistantly set their sails wrongly but are safe, good yachters. I've also known good dinghy sailors who are a complete nightmare on a big boat.

£40k is not that much realtive to other capital assets, and anyone who wants to join our sport should be welcomed, and it is the responsibility of those of us who have the experience to help these people gain the knowledge that we have accumulated over the years.

Since bringing the boat home last year, I have to say that I have found the attitudes of other yachties in this country to be somewhat "selective". If your boat is too small or too big, the wrong make, or if you don't have the right background or wear the right brand of clothing, then you can't be "one of us". What a load of snobbish BS.

Well said...

 

[Seajet]

Well said...

I disagree, having 'run' a few racing dinghies and cruiser / racer yachts.

knowing how to operate one's boat - ie reasonable sail trim, not racing grade tweaking - gets one home faster, quite possibly beating bad weather.

It also avoids premature use and wear on the engine, if that should be a factor.

It's rather simple, get the most out of your boat as long as it stays FUN not an exercise in endurance.

 

[AMCD300]

I disagree.

knowing how to operate one's boat - ie reasonable sail trim, not racing grade tweaking - gets one home faster, quite possibly beating bad weather.

It also avoids premature use and wear on the engine, if that should be a factor.

It's rather simple, get the most out of your boat as long as it stays FUN not an exercise in endurance.

Also - well said.

 

[mcframe]

I don't think less of those who spend their whole sailing career in 20 foot bilge keelers or those who start out in a 45 foot catamaran. To each his own. Live and let live. Judge not lest ye be judged. Etc etc.

True, but surely you admit to a twinge of, well *something*, when you see a bigger/faster/more expensive (but not necessarily paid for in full†) boat than yours being sailed not-as-well-as-you-would-sail-it?

As I used to say - when he had his Foxcub - "Unless you're Judders or RomanA, there's *always* someone with a boat smaller or bigger than yours"

† Like mine ;-)

 

[BrianH]

Originally Posted by Barnac1e
The original question(s) was/were: "But is it too easy, does it not attract some for all the wrong reasons?

Your reasons, my reasons - completely different. I don't think it is fair to judge others on their reasons or their path. There is no right or wrong.[...]
Judge not lest ye be judged. Etc etc.

I don't think my subjective judgement is so very different from many here when I think that the poseurs who buy their big, expensive boats because their interest is not in the sea and sailing on it but in the visible flaunting of their wealth in what they see as a fashionable pastime, as being "for all the wrong reasons". Believe me, I see plenty of those where I moor.

But, as you say, they have every right to do that, there is no wrong reason - their money, their choice. However, it is my choice to privately deplore that shallow (to me) justification in participating in something I believe requires a more robust dedication.

 

[AMCD300]

...it is my choice to privately deplore that shallow (to me) justification in participating in something I believe requires a more robust dedication.

Glad to have shared in your private thoughts...

 

[BrianH]

Glad to have shared in your private thoughts...

Thank you for your pedantic correction - the correct word should have been "personal".

 

[andymcp]

Wow. Interesting thread.

I was welcomed here when seeking advice on my first boat buy. I asked questions then that if I look back now seem horribly amateur. I came to ownership with a wife and 3 kids that needed a certain level of comfort and security. And I came with my eyes open that although I had sailed, crewed, raced and screwed up on all manner of boats over many years from dinghys to 46ft yachts, this would be the first that was ultimately mine, and ultimately my responsibility. I wanted to be sure that the boat we bought would allow us to learn as a whole family without leaving us in danger, even though most of that would be of our own making.

I spent north of £50k on my first boat. I never once questioned whether that was too much. In fact looking at what it gave us, it was a bargain. I could have gone smaller, or safer, but that wasn't what we wanted. And too small or slow and either Mrs McP or the Mini McPs wouldn't have wanted to come. I clearly remember the first night we all slept on the boat, freezing cold winter night in Scotland, and the insane giggling coming from the front cabin where our youngest were thrilled at being in their new 'house'. We could all warm up, get ready, eat hot food and drink hot tea in comfort, then set sail in sub zero temperatures with smiles all round. Magical days and some of the most satisfying memories to pass to the kids. We went further, faster (turns out the McP clan are a competitive lot), sooner and happier than had we tried to drag all 5 up through the range of sizes. And while it was sad to realise that what we had wouldn't grow with what we wanted, the whole family look happily back on that boat as the start of something properly magical. Dinghys, kayaks, friends yachts all fill the gap now, but the spark of loving the water would have been lost had that first family boat not been as right as she was.

As I said earlier, for the money we paid I still reckon it was a bargain.

 

[Bobc]

Carful posting stuff like that Andy. You'll have Seajet on your case

 

[AMCD300]

Thank you for your pedantic correction - the correct word should have been "personal".

Sorry, not purposefully pedantic - I thought you meant it!