First boat, big boat.

[Seajet]

You can jump in at any level and probably get away with it, just don't expect a week or twos' courses to put you in the same position as someone who has experience behind them.

As for 'buy once and get it right', that requires a large dose of good luck !

Sailing on other peoples' boats is great and I always grab the chance to sail any boat type I haven't tried before, be it dinghy or cruiser.

Owning a boat, carrying out the odd jobs, paying for equipment, installing it & maintenance, dealing with the hassles like launching, mast up & down and winter layup are likely to come as a rude shock unless one is the sort of good friend worth solid gold to boat owners, who helps out at such times !

I believe in a relatively minor outlay on one's first boat - of course making an effort to get what seems the right boat to suit - bearing in mind the experience of ownership may well make something else more attractive within a year or three.

Changing boats need not be that expensive, brokers are not mandatory for a start !

 

[Blueboatman]

Some excellent replies here to read.
Myself I am of the ' I never knew that I knew so little' school when I look back at what I got away with..
And yet one way and another I have been sailing since I was around two weeks old and binging and repairing ever since, though once I started to take a real interest as a kid I 'knew' that I needed a dinghy to get out there by myself and put into practise up some tidal muddy gusty creek what I had been trying to assimilate from adult books( no phnarr phnarr intended)..
What seems to have changed is the amazing ready availability now of affordable, good boats and good tuition ( and t'internet to spread the word and dispell prejudice perhaps ).
My guess is that the earlier you start and the more mistakes you ( I) overcome then the more one gets out of a bigger boat later on. Then again there are the Tony Bullimores who take up sailing late in life and - really- go for it....perhaps personality plays as much as anything in boat choice..
I can poopoo certain modern bosts that appeal to the ' instant gratification' criteria- all those tinted big windows, lounging areas, multiple heads and microwaves, wood less wash-and-go exteriors and yet, these same boats sell to a whole range of experience of buyers, if the numbers are to be believed. Each to their own. At least everyone has insurance these days so learning g curve mistakes don't completely ruin others' days in big new boats...

 

[mariadz]

A view from someone without any dingy experience.

My wife, Maria, and I wanted to learn something new together and took an introduction to sail weekend. We loved it and had a hunger to learn as much as possible. Over the following six months we became competent crew but didn't get an opportunity to go out unless we were paying a sea school - that wasn't a major problem because we had a lot to learn. We continued our education and decided that we wanted a yacht of our own so that we weren't constrained by mass teaching on a school boat and could enjoy the benefits of ownership - it's lovely sitting in the cockpit on a summer's evening . We engaged a very good instructor who helped us to understand our boat better and has taken us through to Day Skipper. Even after we had this certificate, we still asked for his company on our first cross-channel jaunt. We were fine but we wanted to have someone there making sure we didn’t make any silly mistakes. We also invite anyone with experience to come on board and show us how they would sail the boat.

At no stage do we profess to know everything. We bought a 45ft yacht and after a year added a bowthruster for emergencies (or mistakes) but we are perfectly capable of controlling our craft without it. We have a couple of scratches but we have not damaged anyone else’s pride and joy. We also learn from our mistakes by understanding what we did wrong and making sure we don’t do it again including being in the Channel when it has been blowing a force 9 but despite informing the coastguard, we managed the situation on our own and got in safely.

I am concerned that in this sport there appears to be a sense of one-upmanship because of the way people come into Sailing or whether they have an AWB. I shouldn’t even mention whether they have a bowthruster! Fortunately, I have found that when we meet people, as opposed to communicating over the internet, they are very friendly and are keen to offer advice to people who want to listen and learn.

Maria and I have plans to travel the world and we are doing as much research as possible including the cruising association, various book/websites and the experiences of friends we have made. We are looking at five years of preparation which includes us furthering our education through to yachtmaster and setting up our Dufour.

To answer, the OP. I believe that you do need to learn but that does not mean you need to go through a prescribed route. The most important factors are a willingness to learn and a thorough understanding of your own capabilities and no over-confidence. If the original question had concerned people with no knowledge, buying a large yacht or motor boat and then sailing it with no training then I would be very concerned and would agree that it wasn’t safe. Unfortunately we have all met that type but that doesn’t mean that all of us late-comers to the sport should be tainted with the same brush.

 

[Tranona]

Sailfree,

the 'dinghies first' route I and others recommend.

Just because you (and others) recommend it does not mean it is the only, or indeed the "right" route, just that it is common, and was more common in the past when it was for most people the only route.

The world has changed and there are far more opportunities for people to take up sports or pastimes without having to go back to the way it was in the past.

While you may value the skills you have gained, they are not necessarily prerequisites for successfully cruising in a 34" sailboat (which is what the OP in the other thread was asking about). There is nothing inherently difficult about learning how to handle such a boat without ever having sailed a dinghy. There is much more to successful cruising than knowing how to squeeze the last bit of performance out of the boat.

 

[Seajet]

Tranona,

for a start I never said that 'my way is the only way'.

I'm not for a moment talking of wringing performance out of a boat, and I think you are deliberately introducing that as a red herring.

I mean the sort of experience which means one knows how a boat will handle on looking at her, how to move boats and equipment with purchases and warps etc, everything from when or when not to tow a dinghy to how to raise and lower rigs, maintenance, when to ignore a forecast, tactics on grounding, all the myriad things one picks up along the way which won't feature on any sailing course !

 

[jonic]

My eureka moment was in my mid 20's on a 35 ft out of English Harbour Antigua

That would have totally ruined you

 

[Coaster]

...successfully cruising in a 34" sailboat...

It might be a bit cramped...

 

[Tranona]

Well spotted! Edited out.

 

[Tranona]

Tranona,

for a start I never said that 'my way is the only way'.

I'm not for a moment talking of wringing performance out of a boat, and I think you are deliberately introducing that as a red herring.

I mean the sort of experience which means one knows how a boat will handle on looking at her, how to move boats and equipment with purchases and warps etc, everything from when or when not to tow a dinghy to how to raise and lower rigs, maintenance, when to ignore a forecast, tactics on grounding, all the myriad things one picks up along the way which won't feature on any sailing course !

Thats the whole point. You don't have to serve a long apprenticeship to learn the bits that are useful to you. Adults learn in a different way to younger people. They can set their learning against previous experience, not necessarily in the same field and are usually good at sorting out what the essentials are. Many things learned in the past are discarded, not wasted, but not necessary to carry out the task successfully.

 

[Seajet]

You don't have to serve a long apprenticeship to learn the bits that are useful to you.

Well it's pure blind luck if you've learned them any other way !

Sailing courses even with the best schools are no preparation for what life, sods' law and ownership will throw ones' way.

Experience is the best armour one can have, it still may not save one but it gives a good chance.

Anything else is having the foresight and / or blind luck to have learned on the subject required...

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

A view from someone without any dingy experience.

My wife, Maria, and I wanted to learn something new together and took an introduction to sail weekend. We loved it and had a hunger to learn as much as possible. Over the following six months we became competent crew but didn't get an opportunity to go out unless we were paying a sea school - that wasn't a major problem because we had a lot to learn. We continued our education and decided that we wanted a yacht of our own so that we weren't constrained by mass teaching on a school boat and could enjoy the benefits of ownership - it's lovely sitting in the cockpit on a summer's evening . We engaged a very good instructor who helped us to understand our boat better and has taken us through to Day Skipper. Even after we had this certificate, we still asked for his company on our first cross-channel jaunt. We were fine but we wanted to have someone there making sure we didn’t make any silly mistakes. We also invite anyone with experience to come on board and show us how they would sail the boat.

At no stage do we profess to know everything. We bought a 45ft yacht and after a year added a bowthruster for emergencies (or mistakes) but we are perfectly capable of controlling our craft without it. We have a couple of scratches but we have not damaged anyone else’s pride and joy. We also learn from our mistakes by understanding what we did wrong and making sure we don’t do it again including being in the Channel when it has been blowing a force 9 but despite informing the coastguard, we managed the situation on our own and got in safely.

I am concerned that in this sport there appears to be a sense of one-upmanship because of the way people come into Sailing or whether they have an AWB. I shouldn’t even mention whether they have a bowthruster! Fortunately, I have found that when we meet people, as opposed to communicating over the internet, they are very friendly and are keen to offer advice to people who want to listen and learn.

Maria and I have plans to travel the world and we are doing as much research as possible including the cruising association, various book/websites and the experiences of friends we have made. We are looking at five years of preparation which includes us furthering our education through to yachtmaster and setting up our Dufour.

To answer, the OP. I believe that you do need to learn but that does not mean you need to go through a prescribed route. The most important factors are a willingness to learn and a thorough understanding of your own capabilities and no over-confidence. If the original question had concerned people with no knowledge, buying a large yacht or motor boat and then sailing it with no training then I would be very concerned and would agree that it wasn’t safe. Unfortunately we have all met that type but that doesn’t mean that all of us late-comers to the sport should be tainted with the same brush.

Excellent response and I wholeheartedly agree!

I didn't have a eureka moment, mainly because I don't remember the first time I sailed, as I was too young.... and have sailed pretty much constantly since... from every sort of dinghy you can imagine through to cruisers... my first 'yacht' was a 32'er.... but i'd sailed thousands of miles on parents, family and friends boats prior to that... so there is no 'standard' route.

As long as people are smart about taking time, then whatever route works for them is the best route.

Sure, someone without a long term dinghy background may not have the 'feel' of the boat that others benefit from, but they could well have strengths that others don't have, such as good engineering, crisis management, or simply, a recognition that they do need to keep asking questions where an experienced hand might be less willing!!

 

[Sailfree]

Message 1 is get out there and enjoy yourself sailing.

Message 2 is you can learn on big boats as you go

but

Message 3 whenever different people get on the helm of my boat I can tell straight away through tacking and sail trimming whether they have dinghy experience.

When I started I was told the best dinghy sailers are windsurfers and the best big boat sailors are dinghy sailors. Not 100% true but a windsurfer learn to feel the wind on his face and trim his sail and a dinghy sailor can use a windex/burgee to see apparent wind and adjust entry point (Luff) angle of sails. Big boat you tend to be more dependant on instruments and not feel.

Message 4 Repeat of Message 1 - Enjoy

 

[Seajet]

Message 1 is get out there and enjoy yourself sailing.

Message 2 is you can learn on big boats as you go

but

Message 3 whenever different people get on the helm of my boat I can tell straight away through tacking and sail trimming whether they have dinghy experience.

When I started I was told the best dinghy sailers are windsurfers and the best big boat sailors are dinghy sailors. Not 100% true but a windsurfer learn to feel the wind on his face and trim his sail and a dinghy sailor can use a windex/burgee to see apparent wind and adjust entry point (Luff) angle of sails. Big boat you tend to be more dependant on instruments and not feel.

Message 4 Repeat of Message 1 - Enjoy

I'd go along with that, though decent dinghy sailors also go by the wind on the face; that's not a racing or ultra experience boast, Arthur Ransome taught me that along with a lot of other things before I'd touched a full size ( not model ) sailing boat !

 

[Litotes]

Sailing courses even with the best schools are no preparation for what life, sods' law and ownership will throw ones' way.

Being in charge - that is indeed the accelerator for learning that knocks all the others into a cocked hat!

Teaching isn't bad either. I sometimes think I really started to learn to sail when I qualified as an instructor. There's nothing like having to explain, or demonstrate, it to somebody else to make you think it through for yourself.

And, of course, for sheer sailing skills, racing.

One of the many great things about the sailing life is that you can learn the basics quite easily - although it does take enough effort to keep most people interested and on their toes - and then you go on learning for the rest of your life. And the relevant subject matter that is is so incredibly diverse. It never grows stale.

 

[npf1]

I mean the sort of experience which means one knows how a boat will handle on looking at her, how to move boats and equipment with purchases and warps etc, everything from when or when not to tow a dinghy to how to raise and lower rigs, maintenance, when to ignore a forecast, tactics on grounding, all the myriad things one picks up along the way which won't feature on any sailing course !

Seajet - you seem to be saying that not being able to do these things should proclude someone from owning a boat of a reasonable size. You surely can't be serious?

Let's dissect your list:

"how a boat will handle on looking at her" - this seldom matters as long as you can learn how to handle your own boat.

"how to move boats and equipment with purchases and warps" - common sense and knowing a few knots will solve most issues for most people

"when not to tow a dinghy" - OK, so a newby may lose a dinghy or have to cut it free. Big deal.

"how to raise and lower rigs" - I doubt many owners of thirty odd foot (or more) boats do this as unaided DIY. Sure it's better if they can, but it hardly counts as a skill that stops them being safe on the water.

"when to ignore a forecast" - again, not essential knowledge to be able to sail safely. Forecasts tend to be pessimistic, so not ignoring them is unlikely to put someone in peril.

"tactics on grounding" - Sure, useful knowledge indeed, but not stuff that should stop someone putting to sea if they don't have that knowledge. Again, no one is going to come to any harm by being over cautious and avoiding as far as possible opportunities to run aground.

If you applied the spirit of your comments to car driving, no one should be ever be allowed on the road!

 

[Highland Bear]

A view from someone without any dingy experience.

My wife, Maria, and I wanted to learn something new together and took an introduction to sail weekend. We loved it and had a hunger to learn as much as possible. Over the following six months we became competent crew but didn't get an opportunity to go out unless we were paying a sea school - that wasn't a major problem because we had a lot to learn. We continued our education and decided that we wanted a yacht of our own so that we weren't constrained by mass teaching on a school boat and could enjoy the benefits of ownership - it's lovely sitting in the cockpit on a summer's evening . We engaged a very good instructor who helped us to understand our boat better and has taken us through to Day Skipper. Even after we had this certificate, we still asked for his company on our first cross-channel jaunt. We were fine but we wanted to have someone there making sure we didn’t make any silly mistakes. We also invite anyone with experience to come on board and show us how they would sail the boat.

At no stage do we profess to know everything. We bought a 45ft yacht and after a year added a bowthruster for emergencies (or mistakes) but we are perfectly capable of controlling our craft without it. We have a couple of scratches but we have not damaged anyone else’s pride and joy. We also learn from our mistakes by understanding what we did wrong and making sure we don’t do it again including being in the Channel when it has been blowing a force 9 but despite informing the coastguard, we managed the situation on our own and got in safely.

I am concerned that in this sport there appears to be a sense of one-upmanship because of the way people come into Sailing or whether they have an AWB. I shouldn’t even mention whether they have a bowthruster! Fortunately, I have found that when we meet people, as opposed to communicating over the internet, they are very friendly and are keen to offer advice to people who want to listen and learn.

Maria and I have plans to travel the world and we are doing as much research as possible including the cruising association, various book/websites and the experiences of friends we have made. We are looking at five years of preparation which includes us furthering our education through to yachtmaster and setting up our Dufour.

To answer, the OP. I believe that you do need to learn but that does not mean you need to go through a prescribed route. The most important factors are a willingness to learn and a thorough understanding of your own capabilities and no over-confidence. If the original question had concerned people with no knowledge, buying a large yacht or motor boat and then sailing it with no training then I would be very concerned and would agree that it wasn’t safe. Unfortunately we have all met that type but that doesn’t mean that all of us late-comers to the sport should be tainted with the same brush.

Excellent post and one which mirrors my own opinions and experience. Our own "first boat" was bought after numerous flotilla holidays and bareboat charters on similar craft. Why should I have started on some miniscule tub as a first purchase?

I never sailed dinghies as a boy and can't now because of old leg injuries, plus I really am not interested in them.

I'll admit my sail trim techniques are not great but get better with every trip. My boat handling is something I'm proud of and I've done all my exams up to YM Coastal and am keen to keep learning.

But I also want a yacht that is modern, comfortable, easy for 2 people to sail and great for entertaining family and friends. If that's how we want to spend our hard earned dosh, I see nothing wrong.

As said above, people get into sailing in many various ways. All that matters is that we enjoy our bit of the sport safely and with respect for others.

 

[Tranona]

Well it's pure blind luck if you've learned them any other way !

Sailing courses even with the best schools are no preparation for what life, sods' law and ownership will throw ones' way.

Experience is the best armour one can have, it still may not save one but it gives a good chance.

Anything else is having the foresight and / or blind luck to have learned on the subject required...

Not sure why you keep talking about sailing schools as if that is the only alternative to starting with dinghies.

One of the things I learned in half a lifetime of working with adult learners at a high level is that there is no one way of learning effectively. Individuals approach learning in different ways and it is a cycle of acquiring knowledge and applying it as required. Some people learn well in a structured, formal environment, some prefer to do it on their own and any combination of the two. Some people can have years of specific experience and still be useless at the task - it is not the experience per se that is valuable, it is what you can do with it that matters.

Just think of the number of people who have had 2 or three distinct careers, or the ease with which most people have adapted to new technologies and you will understand why many are able to take on sailing without having gone through the "experience" route that you recommend.

 

[Seajet]

Seajet - you seem to be saying that not being able to do these things should proclude someone from owning a boat of a reasonable size. You surely can't be serious?

I'm not saying any ability or lack thereof approves or precludes anyone for anything, if I suddenly found myself beamed onto a starship I'd have a jolly good go at the controls.

I'm saying what's the most useful / easiest way.

An extension of this;

'Fast Track' Yachtmasters.

I started sailing at about 8, and just by circumstances have always been in charge of family boats, went across the Channel as skipper at 16, sailed a lot of fast dinghies and traditional boats.

When I did my Yachtmaster Offshore it was TBH just because I could get someone else to pay, I'd already been across the Channel a lot; I did notice that my fellow students had never actually owned boats of their own, which put them at a huge disadvantage in all sorts of ways, mainly just the fact I'd had a boat to go out and get experience on rather than bursts of sailing with chums or schools.

I still took it very seriously, found it challenging and hugely enjoyable ( Top Tip; if doing such a course do it in winter, you get the best instructors and fellow students are serious, not out for a sun tan ).

There is simply no way on earth someone can get to real YMO standard in a concentrated few months, but they can learn to pass the exam !

Just like driving, learn to pass the test then learn to drive.

You mention 'common sense' as something which will get inexperienced people through; this is very, very true, but I've found 'common' sense one of the rarest elements on the planet when applied to any endeavour, not just sailing !

 

[BrianH]

To answer, the OP. [...]If the original question had concerned people with no knowledge, buying a large yacht or motor boat and then sailing it with no training then I would be very concerned and would agree that it wasn’t safe. Unfortunately we have all met that type but that doesn’t mean that all of us late-comers to the sport should be tainted with the same brush.

The original question(s) was/were: "But is it too easy, does it not attract some for all the wrong reasons? Wouldn't it be better for them to do it all more gradually - taking longer to learn it all more thoroughly?"
You have proved you haven't had it too easy; you were not attracted to sailing for the wrong reasons; you are learning it all more thoroughly. I salute you, you are not typical of those to whom I was directing my remarks.

I should have been more specific with a question couched in the manner of your words that begin my quotation of your post. That is proved by the theme being so easily hijacked into the requirement of a dinghy apprenticeship, which, while it was my experience, I was not necessarily advocating it as an essential prerequisite for adequate training - only that there is an adequate training. My whole point being that we dinosaurs were forced onto a long ramp of learning by gradual increments because that was the norm governed by availability and economics. Today that is no longer the case.

Perhaps too I am influenced by my Italian base, where there are so many "of that type" that it feeds my entrenched prejudices. I don't wish to denigrate Italians, two of my closest and dearest friends are Italian sailors who do not fall into that category and would almost certainly agree with my sentiments.

Thank you for your thoughtful and well-argued contribution - there have indeed been many such. Thank you all.

 

[bbg]

The original question(s) was/were: "But is it too easy, does it not attract some for all the wrong reasons? Wouldn't it be better for them to do it all more gradually - taking longer to learn it all more thoroughly?"

Your reasons, my reasons - completely different. I don't think it is fair to judge others on their reasons or their path. There is no right or wrong.

I don't think less of those who spend their whole sailing career in 20 foot bilge keelers or those who start out in a 45 foot catamaran. To each his own. Live and let live. Judge not lest ye be judged. Etc etc.