Filling gas bottles.

[mitiempo]

If the proper rubber hose for propane is used high pressure is not a problem. In North America it is common to use rubber hose from the tank to the regulator and 3' long sections with the proper fitting for the tank and regulator are sold and are very common.

The standard steel 20 lb tanks commonly used for home bbqs are exchanged at some retailers for an already filled tank. But for any other tank we refill them. They use a good scale and when full (80% capacity max) just close the valve - no soap test. I do this regularly as I live aboard. My 2 tanks are composite and as posted by Conachair the level is visible through the grp. Lightweight and non-corroding as well. Life 15 years with re-certification every 5 years.

In North America most boats are entirely plumbed with rubber propane rated hose and is lasts quite well. Our regs (ABYC) call for no connections outside the propane locker except at the stove or heater.

Filling a tank from another should not be an issue if you are as careful as any dealings with an explosive gas. This is often done from one cruiser's tank to another in foreign ports if you don't have the correct adaptor. I can recall no explosions on boats for many years around here but a motorhome did blow up about 12 years ago never to be driven again. Nobody died but I think their ears were still ringing weeks later as it was very loud.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

The post about butane only in butane bottles is a bit confusing though - is that right? For sure don't put propane in butane bottles, but the other way round? Last time I got these bottles filled it was a mix butane/propane.

What Calder says (I'm beginning to feel that I am quoting from his book with missionary zeal) is that Propane is liquefied at higher pressures and therefore the bottles are stronger. You may therefore put Butane in a Propane bottle without a problem. The corollary is that if you put Propane (high pressure) into a Butane (low pressure) bottle you are likely to find it rupturing.

He also give the different pressure/temperature figures for the "straight" gases and various mixes of the two. As far as I can see, all this effectively adds up to is that you may put "straight" Butane into a Butane cylinder, but nothing else. However, if you want, you may put Butane or a Butane/Propane mix or Propane into a Propane bottle.
I hope that makes sense, but it means that your propane tanks should be OK for any combination.

I would post the pressure/temperature figures up but they would need to go into a small spreadsheet and I have no idea how to post one of those!



Incidentally, I said earlier that I saw no reason for intermixing gases and bottles. For those of us who merely sail around the UK with the occasional tootle across the Channel that remains the case. However, I now realise that Calder raises this because blue water sailers may find they have no choice of gas in some parts of the world. If just butane or just propane are available then they have to use it.

 

[VicS]

I would post the pressure/temperature figures up but they would need to go into a small spreadsheet and I have no idea how to post one of those!

Relevant figures from the Calor butane and propane safety data sheets are

Butane : vapour pressure at 15C = 2 bar : boiling point = -2C

propane : vapour pressure at 15C = 7.5 bar : boiling point -42C

 

[Ubergeekian]

Relevant figures from the Calor butane and propane safety data sheets are

Butane : vapour pressure at 15C = 2 bar : boiling point = -2C

propane : vapour pressure at 15C = 7.5 bar : boiling point -42C

Those'll be the boiling points at atmospheric pressure?

 

[VicS]

Those'll be the boiling points at atmospheric pressure!

 

[Conachair]

Just refilled a 20Lb & 10lb USA grp gas bottles with propane from HSS. Hire of bottle & the gas was about £24, camping gas 907's were costing me £22 a pop, so I think I've saved about £80. Do it once more & it will pay for the "adaptors for any gas bottle in the world" kit from here. http://www.socal.co.uk/Toolbox/Regu..._Universal_Gas_Cylinder_Adaptor_Kit/430/17933 With the hose & carraige it came to about £160.


Easy decanting, boiling water over the HSS bottle did speed things up a lot.

Just noticed as well, camping gaz is butane/propane mix. Can't be much propane, still seems to freeze near 0deg.

 

[crisjones]

Although the Socal kit is useful because it gives you everything you need in one kit it is pretty expensive for what you get - they do not even include the essential M20 x M20 connecting hose!!.

On the Socal site the M20 x M20 connecting hose is £19.00, the same hose can be found here www.bes.co.uk/products/066.asp for £3.41 - a huge difference. There are also some camping gaz adaptors on page www.bes.co.uk/products/063.asp for £6 to £8. So you could buy an adapter and W20 to Propane POL hose for well under £20 including post and VAT etc to fill Camping Gaz cylinders from a Propane bottle.

You will probably only use a few of the adaptors in the kit so I would suggest it would be much more cost effective to just buy what you want when you need them. Whenever you are in foreign countries with different bottles the appropriate adaptor will probably be readily available.

Conachair - oops, sorry just noticed you are filling US bottles not Camping Gaz!!! However the fact still remains that the socal kit is very expensive. Depending on what you already have in the way of fittings for your US bottles you may have only needed a connecting hose.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

So you could buy an adapter and W20 to Propane POL hose for well under £20 including post and VAT etc to fill Camping Gaz cylinders from a Propane bottle.

I wouldn't do that!

I certainly would not put propane into a butane cylinder. Propane is at a considerably higher pressure than butane and the butane bottles are not designed for that higher pressure.

It also looks as if you are taking the propane from the supply tank via the regulator which is not a good idea. The regulator is designed to take gas. If you invert the bottle then liguid propane will get into the regulator, which it is not designed for.

You need an adapter at the supply end, a hose, and an adapter at the receiving end. No regulators. No propane into butane bottles.

but I agree that BES is good!

 

[crisjones]

I take your point about the pressure difference between Propane and Butane and you are quite right to caution about the fact. However the bottles are designed to put up with the rigours of everyday use and mis handling etc etc. To make a bottle purely to cope with the pressures involved (propane or butane) would need only relatively thin guage construction - much thinner than is actually used.

If you look at Butane and Propane cylinders of equal size you will see the construction and strength are identical because they are both designed to cope with the same sort of abuse that they get in normal service. I have seen Butane bottles painted Orange by the suppliers and they have been tested to the required test pressures so a clear indication that the bottles are the same.

Still, I would echo your warning NOT to put propane in a butane bottle - why take the risk if you do not need to?

Obviously there is nothing to stop you transfering butane from a larger cylinder to a Camping Gaz cylinder using appropriate adapters and hoses.

I was not proposing to transfer liquid gas through a regulator - that is not a good idea and you will not get much gas through anyway!!! The hose to use is a high pressure hose that normally connects a Propane cylinder directly to a bulkhead mounted regulator, the receiving cylinder should also be connected via an adapter - but not a regulator.

Sorry for any confusion and misunderstanding, I was replying to Conachair who had mentioned Propane and Camping Gaz in his post but was actually filling US Propane bottles, I overlooked the fact that Camping Gaz is Butane!!! It was posted it in a bit of a rush at lunch time - should have taken a bit more care considering the subject matter!!!

I would also caution anyone not to attempt any gas transfers between bottles unless you are sure you know what you are doing and that you understand the potential risks!!!

 

[Conachair]

Although the Socal kit is useful because it gives you everything you need in one kit it is pretty expensive for what you get - they do not even include the essential M20 x M20 connecting hose!!.

On the Socal site the M20 x M20 connecting hose is £19.00, the same hose can be found here www.bes.co.uk/products/066.asp for £3.41 - a huge difference. There are also some camping gaz adaptors on page www.bes.co.uk/products/063.asp for £6 to £8. So you could buy an adapter and W20 to Propane POL hose for well under £20 including post and VAT etc to fill Camping Gaz cylinders from a Propane bottle.

You will probably only use a few of the adaptors in the kit so I would suggest it would be much more cost effective to just buy what you want when you need them. Whenever you are in foreign countries with different bottles the appropriate adaptor will probably be readily available.

Conachair - oops, sorry just noticed you are filling US bottles not Camping Gaz!!! However the fact still remains that the socal kit is very expensive. Depending on what you already have in the way of fittings for your US bottles you may have only needed a connecting hose.

Well, yeah could have got the bits cheaper but hey ho. Time was short and it is a satisfying box with all the bits and spanners on one place rather than a bag of bits in the bottom of a locker somewhere. I wonder how many bits will get used? Well, straight away USA & calor, then camping gaz & le cube in france, then there's at least 2 different bottles in Spain , can't remember about protugal. But at least it' sorted and tidy now.

 

[crisjones]

Very glad to hear that you have got a beautiful box of bits and that you are very happy with it!!!! Sounds like Christmas has come early for Conachair!!!

 

[ghostlymoron]

To be featured in PBO?

This interesting and economic thread has attracted so many contributions and visits it must be on the PBO editorial staff's radar for inclusion in the next issue. Like the 'Snebby' one in this months. But maybe there are safety or litigation issues.

 

[Heckler]

I can't see any reason why not ... except that you'd need waterside filling points to make it worthwhile.

Calor Gas set up a nation wide system of filling tanks a few years ago, (a friend of mine was the driver behind it) they are now stripping these tanks out. It never took off as a fuel and was not economcally viable.
I cant see them putting them back in to fill up cooking tanks!
Stu

 

[Interlude]

When I have my small cyllinders refilled at the local petrol station, they don't weigh my cyllinder, they open the breather at the top and fill till the gas flows out of it. I weigh it when I get it home to check, and it is always spot on. This is for LPG.

 

[mitiempo]

Interlude
That sounds like they are overfilling it through ignorance. If you take it to a warmer place than the filling station it will blow off the excess as it warms up and expands. Keep it away from sources of sparks after filling it that way. Max fill is supposed to be 80% by law.

 

[CelebrityScandel]

When I have my small cyllinders refilled at the local petrol station, they don't weigh my cyllinder, they open the breather at the top and fill till the gas flows out of it. I weigh it when I get it home to check, and it is always spot on. This is for LPG.

That is probably because the "breather" you are referring to is actually a fixed liquid level bleeder valve. It has a dip tube below it which extends down to the 80% liquid fill level and starts venting when the liquid level reaches that. These cylinders do not have to be weighed during filling.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

Another "problem" is the liquid gas in the fill hose. You don't want to be uncoupling the fill hose when it's full of liquid. .

Not an issue as long as you keep the liquid away from your hands and do the filling job in the open. I have a gas powered car and every time I re-fuel ( altogether too often) some liquid gas escapes from the hose connection. Apart from the stink, no problem. Probably no greater risk than that when some petrol overspills as it did on me yesterday.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I have a gas powered car and do wonder if a/ anyone makes a portable re-fillable plastic tank that can be used here in the over regulated EU and b/ if so does anyone know of a connector which would allow it to be re-filled at the lpg station where I fill my car.

 

[Bobobolinsky]

One or two things about the cylinders and LPG in general.

There are no longer any distinctions in construction between propane cylinders and butane cylinders, as it is not ecomomical for the manufacturers to produce cylinders to two different specifications, down to economy of scale

If you have your own cylinder, it is possible to re-valve it with a cut off level gauge at 80%, these are available on the US market. They do not however operate adequately with a decanting system, as they have a pinhole which stops the pump being damaged. There are several cylinder manufacturers in the UK, but they are only small and cylinders are speciallised and comparatively expensive.

A pump could be manufactured by fitting an in tank petrol pump inside a 50mm section of tube. I have done this before and it was very successful for decanting. I looked at manufacturing the units for sale, however, the legislation involved in bringing these units to market, was prohibitively expensive.

Any unperforated propane hose left with liquid propane in it in the sun, will look like a snake that has swallowed a family of mice very quickly. Most "Black" reinforced hose of the "Pirelli" type has a perforated sheath
The other thing about these hoses is that they have a steel reinforcement and therefore. do not build up static charges between cylinders. Use of the red nylon reinforced hose, could result in a static spark on disconnection. Always a thought, but the use of heavy rubber gloves prevents grounding and could cause a static spark. Always ground the cylinders before breaking any connections.
Apart from muck in cylinders, there is a chance of, water being more dense than the LPG, decanting upside down cylinders can result in a water load.

In the UK, return cylinders have an average of between 16-18% gas present, which is why most cylinders are filled by mass not volume. You cannot say what is the remnant gas in the cylinder. The 16% return is a free gift from you to the big gas companies of £48M per year Good old Calor get half of that.
LPG is a flammable gas, not an explosive gas. The safety of it is enhanced, because it has very close limits of flamability. Approx. 9-11% in air. Thats why spider webs in the burner of your gas fridge and cooker cause so many problems.
Propane and butane in the UK are supplied to British standards from the refinery. Commercial propane is 10% other gases (8% butane and 2% other gases) Commercial Butane is 10% other gases (8% propane and 2% other gases) They are mixes. Some cylinder fillers will add propane to "dead" butane, called spiking, this is to make sure the gas comes out the cylinders.
Camping Gaz is commercial Butane, it comes out of the Butane tank at the fillers, hence the mix of gas.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

One or two things about the cylinders and LPG in general

There are no longer any distinctions in construction between propane cylinders and butane cylinders, as it is not ecomomical for the manufacturers to produce cylinders to two different specifications, down to economy of scale.

Cheers for that, but may I ask about the Camping Gaz cylinders?

AFAIK these cylinders are only made for butane and it would be logical for the manufacturer (Coleman?) to design and make them specifically for this purpose, rather than make stronger ones which would also be suitable for propane.
As very many of us use the Camping Gaz cylinders it would be useful to have a definitive answer on this.