Favourite boats I haven't tried

[DownWest]

My FIL had a W22 on the Chesapeake. Loved her. Called her 'Shandygaff' We have a watercolour of her up a creek..

 

[John_Silver]

I love this vid of Bill Churchouse and his westerly 22, cost him £1700, what a cracking wee boat.

Had the privilege of meeting Bill a couple of times, when I lived in Poole. Inspirational. Abiding memory is of Bill and Belgean beating up the harbour, deep reefed, on the winter solstice in 2015.

 

[dancrane]

Great photo (and a great video).

Admirable independence of mind by Mr Churchouse raises so many questions. No electricity...no guardrails...hard tender...

...can anybody tell me what the red thing is, up the mast? It somewhat resembles my dinghy's anti-inversion float...

 

[Wansworth]

What caused the thinking behind the increase in size of boats,was it market lead. or subtitle pushing by yachtingmagazines and architects and builders persuading the yachtsman he needed two w.c,shower and fitted kitchen!

 

[dancrane]

I guess anything that the designer or builder saw a market for, could be supplied. Something like the Centaur must have been a welcome advance in comfort fifty years ago, and by degrees each new model's comfort, performance, equipment (and size) left the previous 'best' looking lesser. En route, we may have lost almost as much as we gained, though I haven't experienced how basic the early boats were!

Electricity on board is so great when it can be relied upon utterly; and so ghastly when it's remotely faulty. Less may be more, although how big a boat can cope comfortably (and safely) in 2020 without even 1970s 'modern conveniences', may be questionable because of the level of adjustment required.

Quite a bit of drift here, but it is helping re-form the list of boats I like which I haven't tried, so we're not far off.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

What caused the thinking behind the increase in size of boats,was it market lead. or subtitle pushing by yachtingmagazines and architects and builders persuading the yachtsman he needed two w.c,shower and fitted kitchen!

Simple market forces and competition ... while I loved the time I spent as a child on my parents 22 ft Kingfisher it is a different world entirely to my own Bavaria 36 .... both boats cost about 1/3 - 1/4 of our annual income at the time of purchase. Put them next to each other today and give any family an either/or choice and I am certain I know which would win 99.9% of the time.

Boat manufacturers don't "convince" buyers they need anything - they design and offer products that they believe will sell, then people either buy them or they don't - no sales-pitch, glossy brochure or multi-media advertising will make a success out of a boat no-one wants.

Why have people sleeping in the saloon when modern AWBs have 3 double cabins for bedding and gear? Why sit like sardines in a tiny cockpit when modern boats offer space for everyone? Why have waves slopping over the decks due to low freeboard and large angles of heel when a modern boat sails more upright and drier? Why have the travellers and main-sheet swinging around in the cockpit when they could be on the cabin roof? Why stoop below decks when you could stand? Why duck during tacks and gybes when the boom could be well clear above a bimini? .... the list goes on and on and on .... it's progress.

 

[LittleSister]

Just catching up with this thread.

LittleSister, re your friend's boat with the new Whitlock steering - in view of how it was previously tiller steered, why was it not possible to go back to the tiller?

I can't really remember, but I suspect we didn't know how to disconnect the wheel steering. (The wheel steering had been fitted while owner was abroad, and this was our first trip with it.)

I always had a soft spot for the Francis 26, also from Chuck Pain. That he had the first one might be something to recomend it..

So have I, but having sailed on a Frances 26 for couple of days I felt it wasn't for me. I was surprised how little room there was for a 26 footer (the Victoria 26 version is presumably better in this respect, at the cost of being not quite so good looking), though it was imaginatively laid out below, and I was underwhelmed by the sailing performance (albeit in light winds) and general feel of her. She seemed to heel a lot for the modest winds we were in (but perhaps hardens up and doesn't go much further when the wind pipes up?).

I got that wrong, I meant the westerly 22's, the really unusually shaped little ones [not the Westerly Nomad]

The Nomad is, I think, basically the same boat as the 22, but with an excessive cabin top on it. Amazing how it transformed a really pretty little boat (the 22) into something pig ugly (the Nomad) and less practical, albeit more spacious inside.

Yes , of course most of us have budgetary limitations of one level or another. But just do not make the mistake of buying something silly, like the first pic in your post 162 [a Westerly 22]
Just try getting past the spray hood to get to the bow for a start. that is if you actually manage to sail anywhere.

I believe the foredeck access on the Westerly 22 is intended to be via the forehatch - there are no side decks - so no need to struggle past the spray hood.

Stock's coastal exploits are (to me) very appealing. . .

I wonder what the modern (or let's say last 40 years' production) equivalent of Stock's Shoal Waters would be?

Shoal Waters wasn't itself a production boat. Charlie Stock bought a new 16' 6" Fairey Falcon dinghy/dayboat hull (curiously, the Falcon was originally designed as a motor launch!), and added a cabin top, ballast, bowsprit and a gaff rig.

 

[DJE]

There she is. You could hardly ask for a cuter little boat, nor any cheaper. I wonder how she goes, to windward?

As somebody once said, "Goes to windward like a paper bag".

 

[LittleSister]

. . . and the Samphire 23's, those are proper little ships!

Now you're talking!



Did thousands of miles in mine. (Contact me if you're interested in buying one! )

 

[JumbleDuck]

So have I, but having sailed on a Frances 26 for couple of days I felt it wasn't for me. I was surprised how little room there was for a 26 footer (the Victoria 26 version is presumably better in this respect, at the cost of being not quite so good looking), though it was imaginatively laid out below, and I was underwhelmed by the sailing performance (albeit in light winds) and general feel of her. She seemed to heel a lot for the modest winds we were in (but perhaps hardens up and doesn't go much further when the wind pipes up?).

All interesting points, so ...

Yes, there isn't much room below, but that's because they were designed for fewer people than most boats of the same size. Other designers would be cramming five into 26', but the F/V26 is really designed for two, plus occasional guests, and the V34 for three. The upside is that there is a lot of storage, so you don't have to live out of a bag on your bunk. There isn't really much difference in this respect between the V and the F: the former gives you a forecabin instead of a sleeping area in exchange for a more Tonka toy appearance.

Chuck Paine designs boats according to his "20/20" rule: 20 degrees of heel under full sail at 20 knots of wind. In the case of the F/V26 hull this happens because (as I wrote somewhere earlier) the hull section is basically semicircular rather than wineglass amidships so there is little form stability and you have to wait for the keel (which is a NACA aerofoil) to do its stuff. I don't find my V26 frustrating in light airs, or at least not for a heavy (4 tons) long keeled displacement boat. In fact, I usually reef by F4.

Horses for courses. If you are used to something modern - light, airy, responsive helm - then the V/F26 will probably seem like a plodder. I like mine very much indeed, but wholly understand that they wouldn't be everyone's ideal. Here's to variety!

 

[dancrane]

"Goes to windward like a paper bag."

It's unfortunate that owners of almost all designs of yacht are so cheerfully withering about anything different which doesn't equal their own, in whatever regard.

I'm not objecting to the humour - I just wish it wasn't so vague. Handy if yachts could be compared with cars - whose abilities vary a good deal, but couldn't be accurately compared with, for example, galvanised dustbins. I mean, a Morris Minor wasn't built for speed, but it could travel uphill - so it wouldn't be fair to say it couldn't. Presumably the Westerly 22 could go to windward - just not pointing high? So, how not high?

I predict unhelpful humour in the next few posts, comparing the galvanised dustbin favourably with British Leyland products. ?

 

[Wansworth]

"Goes to windward like a paper bag."

It's unfortunate that owners of almost all designs of yacht are so cheerfully withering about anything different which doesn't equal their own, in whatever regard.

I'm not objecting to the humour - I just wish it wasn't so vague. Handy if yachts could be compared with cars - whose abilities vary a good deal, but couldn't be accurately compared with, for example, galvanised dustbins. I mean, a Morris Minor wasn't built for speed, but it could travel uphill - so it wouldn't be fair to say it couldn't. Presumably the Westerly 22 could go to windward - just not pointing high? So, how not high?

I predict unhelpful humour in the next few posts, comparing the galvanised dustbin favourably with British Leyland products. ?

Funnily enough I was pondering the yacht version of the Morris Minor this morning,I suppose it has to be the Westerly Centaur but equally the Macwester 26 and while on the subject of Macwesterthe Macwester 22 goes like a rocket,shame about the interior.

 

[doug748]

What caused the thinking behind the increase in size of boats,was it market lead. or subtitle pushing by yachtingmagazines and architects and builders persuading the yachtsman he needed two w.c,shower and fitted kitchen!

Probably a bit of each.

There are no doubt folk who want a boat to be as near to a seaside flat as can be contrived. Others are more interested in sailing performance and value, in the broadest sense.

PS
The Sadler 25 is a nice boat, never heard a bad word against them. Did my first Channel crossing on one........on second thoughts I will say a bad word about them........we lost the stern U bolt and keeping the mast on board was like the Battle of Waterloo - "A dam close run thing".

 

[LittleSister]

Funnily enough I was pondering the yacht version of the Morris Minor this morning,I suppose it has to be the Westerly Centaur but equally the Macwester 26

I wouldn't say the Macwester 26 is the equal of the Centaur. Both roomy for their length/era, but the Centaur is said to sail much better than you would have thought. I don't think anyone has ever accused the Mac 26 of that. IIRC the Macwester 27 was evolved from the 26 with attention to the keels, and was said to sail better as a result.

I seem to recall that the fin keel version of the Centaur (the Chieftain?) was said to sail impressively.

 

[dancrane]

Fin-keeler was the Pembroke, I think. The Chieftain was the aft-cabin Centaur.

 

[LittleSister]

All interesting points, so ...

Thinking about it a bit more I don't think there was anything wrong at all with the Frances 26, except that it didn't live up to my unrealistic dreams of it!

As it happens, I never won the pools anyway.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Thinking about it a bit more I don't think there was anything wrong at all with the Frances 26, except that it didn't live up to my unrealistic dreams of it!

And to be fair, mine was no great shakes in light airs until I bought a beautiful new mainsail from Nicholson-Hughes (RIP) which completely transformed her. If you're on the Clyde some time, let me know and we can see how fast she'll go.

As it happens, I never won the pools anyway.

They were outrageously expensive ... the original invoice for mine shows that it cost roughly twice as much as a Centaur.

 

[johnalison]

I wouldn't say the Macwester 26 is the equal of the Centaur. Both roomy for their length/era, but the Centaur is said to sail much better than you would have thought. I don't think anyone has ever accused the Mac 26 of that. IIRC the Macwester 27 was evolved from the 26 with attention to the keels, and was said to sail better as a result.

There was a Macwester 27 near us when we started cruising in '71. It's owner was called 'Mac' and he used to boast about the boat's performance with tales of steaming down the Wallet at 7-8Kn. We could pass him easily in our Cirrus and so gave his stories less credence. I rather gave up on the magazine PBO after reading an article by a chap who claimed to make his Mac 26 or 27 go much faster by doing something to its skeg - the equivalent of putting spoilers on a Morris Minor.

 

[dancrane]

I believe Little Sister's quote about the Macwester has been attributed to me in your last post, John. It may be a glitch in how my computer reads the page.

Shoal Waters wasn't itself a production boat. Charlie Stock bought a new 16' 6" Fairey Falcon dinghy/dayboat hull (curiously, the Falcon was originally designed as a motor launch!), and added a cabin top, ballast, bowsprit and a gaff rig.

An interesting history. But I was wondering (feeling envious of the style but not of the maintenance that her timber construction requires) just which relatively modern equivalents there are - most likely from a GRP production line.

 

[steve yates]

Do you mean gaff and cutter rigged? Or just small and capable and modern as in Grp and sloop rigged?
If the latter maybe something like the pirate express or the shipmate senior?