Fatal boating accident

[rotrax]

Sorry but sometimes they do, I was called to a drowning in a swimming pool at a night time party many years ago, ambulance had also been called. The deceased was being given CPR by bystanders when we arrived , crew and I took over, but it was apparent to us quite soon that it was to no avail. However we carried on until we got him into the ambulance and declared him dead on arrival at the hospital. It was kinder to those at the scene.
I agree that in general they don't and when death is obvious but an ambulance has been called I have cancelled it to avoid wasting their time.

I have been involved in Motorsport for 45 years.

In my direct experience of UK protocol severely injured or pronounced dead competitors are removed to hospital ASAP, depending on requirements for resuscitation. If the paramedics require a still vehicle for tricky stuff, that is provided. Death is always pronounced at the Hospital.

Please note, it is MY experience, and might differ from the experience of others.

I have been extremely lucky. 45 years only a broken arm, shoulder blade and collar bone plus loads of gravel rash, bumps and bruises.

My racing mate Billy has been severely injured and has had three helicopter rides to the hospital...................................

 

[JumbleDuck]

Similar story in Tobermory Harbour in 2009, with one death. MAIB report HERE. Excessive speed in the dark and alcohol blamed.

And there was the Sea Snake accident in Tarbert Loch Fyne in 2005, though I do wonder whether drunks driving power boats around at high speeds in small harbours move the results from "accident" to "inevitable consequence".

 

[JumbleDuck]

In my direct experience of UK protocol severely injured or pronounced dead competitors are removed to hospital ASAP, depending on requirements for resuscitation. If the paramedics require a still vehicle for tricky stuff, that is provided. Death is always pronounced at the Hospital.

The paramedic who ran my First Aid at Work course said that only doctors are allowed to certify death, so unless a doctor is to hand paramedics will take the remains to hospital, even if they are in several parts.

 

[Boathook]

The paramedic who ran my First Aid at Work course said that only doctors are allowed to certify death, so unless a doctor is to hand paramedics will take the remains to hospital, even if they are in several parts.

Last September my dad was found dead at home. The paramedics eventually arrived and pronounced him dead after a few formal checks, and then we had to hang around waiting for the police as it was an unexpected death. A private ambulance was then called to take him to the mortuary. All surreal waiting for the police whilst watching England playing USA at rugby with him in the lounge as well.

 

[penberth3]

The paramedic who ran my First Aid at Work course said that only doctors are allowed to certify death, so unless a doctor is to hand paramedics will take the remains to hospital, even if they are in several parts.

How long ago was that? It always used to be that only registered medical professionals (i.e. doctors) could certify death. More recently news reports often say paramedics have declared someone dead. Perhaps there has been a change. Possibly paramedics are allowed to make the decision and a certificate is provided later by a doctor? I'd be interested to know chapter and verse.

 

[Trop Cher]

How long ago was that? It always used to be that only registered medical professionals (i.e. doctors) could certify death. More recently news reports often say paramedics have declared someone dead. Perhaps there has been a change. Possibly paramedics are allowed to make the decision and a certificate is provided later by a doctor? I'd be interested to know chapter and verse.

Paramedics can certify death. This is how you will often read in news reports that the victim was pronounced dead at scene. As said previously, once a person is pronounced dead they then become the responsibility of the police. In certain circumstances, for example if the body is in a public place, it may be moved by the ambulance crew. I have spent hours waiting for the police to arrive so that I can hand over the responsibility of a dead person to them, but I work in a very rural area.

 

[Trop Cher]

The paramedic who ran my First Aid at Work course said that only doctors are allowed to certify death, so unless a doctor is to hand paramedics will take the remains to hospital, even if they are in several parts.

Sorry, but this is incorrect or possibly well out of date.

 

[Biggles Wader]

Paramedics and other health workers can "pronounce life extinct" under certain circumstances and thus call a halt to further medical interventions but it still requires a doctor to "certify death" and issue the death certificate.

 

[JumbleDuck]

How long ago was that? It always used to be that only registered medical professionals (i.e. doctors) could certify death. More recently news reports often say paramedics have declared someone dead. Perhaps there has been a change. Possibly paramedics are allowed to make the decision and a certificate is provided later by a doctor? I'd be interested to know chapter and verse.

That was about three, maybe four, years ago. Perhaps it's different in Scotland? I have a friend who used, inter alia, to tidy up after people were hit by trains and I think it was the police surgeon who certified death in these cases, even though the deceased were normally in a large number of parts.

 

[Seajet]

My best friend, in Scotland by coincidence, carried out the same awful task, as a railway safety inspector - eventually it really got to him, especially as the people involved were often young - he kept quiet about it or I'd have dropped everything to see him - in the end he took his own life.

 

[PilotWolf]

I was certainly allow to certify life extinct when I was a paramedic, that was maybe 12 + years ago.

Like many I am now struggling, not too bad recently but went through a horrendous period of flash backs and nightmares - I m sure this was a contribution to my marriage break up. When I started the debrief was over tea with other crew, then the management decided separating the crews and introduced roadside standby was a good idea thus depriving staff of that release and support.

I understand the need to move on but there are somethings that shouldn't be taken away from operational emergency service personnel, be it ambulance, fire, police or whoever. Spending time with colleagues is one of them.

PW

 

[alan_d]

I was certainly allow to certify life extinct when I was a paramedic, that was maybe 12 + years ago.

Like many I am now struggling, not too bad recently but went through a horrendous period of flash backs and nightmares - I m sure this was a contribution to my marriage break up. When I started the debrief was over tea with other crew, then the management decided separating the crews and introduced roadside standby was a good idea thus depriving staff of that release and support.

I understand the need to move on but there are somethings that shouldn't be taken away from operational emergency service personnel, be it ambulance, fire, police or whoever. Spending time with colleagues is one of them.

PW

Dr David Alexander, an Aberdeen psychiatrist, did a series of studies of 35 police officers who had been involved in in the retrieval and identification of human remains after the Piper Alpha disaster. Three years later most of these officers were free from mental health problems. He found that they had been well-supported by management and experienced a strong sense of esprit de corps. His conclusion that " organisational and managerial practices appear to be powerful antidotes to adverse post-traumatic reactions" was published in 1993, but does not seem to have influenced many subsequent management decisions.

 

[Seajet]

His findings could well have helped a lot of people - but accountants who might sign off such help aren't likely to be the ones doing anything to get PTSD, are they...

When we lost Test pilots at Hawkers / BAe there were guys crying unashamedly - and when HMS Sheffield was hit by the Exocet and on fire so the deck was hot, the survivors huddled on the foredeck and began to sing Monty Pythons'

' Always Look On The Bright Side Of Life '

That cameraderie was probably all the help they got.

 

[penberth3]

Paramedics can certify death. This is how you will often read in news reports that the victim was pronounced dead at scene. As said previously, once a person is pronounced dead they then become the responsibility of the police. In certain circumstances, for example if the body is in a public place, it may be moved by the ambulance crew. I have spent hours waiting for the police to arrive so that I can hand over the responsibility of a dead person to them, but I work in a very rural area.

Are you sure? You're using "pronounce" and "certify" to mean the same thing. I'm more inclined to believe Biggles Wader's reply a couple of posts below yours, it seems to be a more accurate explanation.

 

[penberth3]

That was about three, maybe four, years ago. Perhaps it's different in Scotland? I have a friend who used, inter alia, to tidy up after people were hit by trains and I think it was the police surgeon who certified death in these cases, even though the deceased were normally in a large number of parts.

Indeed, it could be different in Scotland.

 

[PilotWolf]

Are you sure? You're using "pronounce" and "certify" to mean the same thing. I'm more inclined to believe Biggles Wader's reply a couple of posts below yours, it seems to be a more accurate explanation.

We could pronounce death, as in there being no requirement to continue or start resuscitation. Certification as in writing a death certificate required a doctor. The patient had to meet several specific criteria for us to make that descison.

W

 

[Bandit]

In this incident a kill cord would only have cut the engine after the impact.

There have been awful incidents where people in a RIB are thrown from a RIB in choppy weather and the out of control boat runs in circles around them injuring them with the prop until stopped or running out of fuel.

It is generally accepted in a RIB to wear the kill cord around the drivers knee, leaving the hands free to operate the boat , take lines, hold the quay when docking etc.

You can also get "electronic kill cords" which cut the engine when you are more than X metres away from the controls, ie fallen out or walking up the pontoon.

 

[johnalison]

We could pronounce death, as in there being no requirement to continue or start resuscitation. Certification as in writing a death certificate required a doctor. The patient had to meet several specific criteria for us to make that descison.

W

There are good practical reasons why people such as paramedics need to be able to pronounce life extinct. For the most part this is obvious to anyone, even without training, but I assume that paramedics will give the benefit of doubt to the patient if there is uncertainty. To certify death, the doctor must have attended the patient for the condition that caused death and for the death from that condition to have been expected. Attendance must also have been within two weeks, unless the rules have changed. A clinician can never certify death from accidental causes.

 

[JumbleDuck]

A clinician can never certify death from accidental causes.

Who does, then?

 

[Leighb]

Who does, then?

The coroner is involved when a clinician is unable to provide a death certificate, this may involve a post mortem examination to ascertain the cause of death.