Fast small classic?

[TLouth7]

Is there such a thing as a small yacht with classic lines that is objectively fast?

By classic lines I guess I mean relatively narrow beam and a higher displacement/length ratio. And by fast I mean capable of sailing near hull speed in moderate airs. And by small I mean 25'-35'.

I guess the question is whether a large rig and significant ballast can in theory or practice compensate for high disp/length and narrower beam. I imagine that such a vessel would have to be sailed on its ear to compensate for a lack of initial stability compared to a more modern hull shape.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

I've always thought the Aphrodite 101 looks easily driven in a wet, on your ear, stylee.

It could probably do even better with a more modern, lower CofG keel. You do see them around and probably cheap enough to try an 'upgrade'.

 

[Simonpk]

The 1st that came to mind was a Folkboat, wood or GRP, then a Dragon for a daysaily type yacht.

 

[Georgio]

How about this for a modern hull shape with classic looks

http://dixdesign.com/29Retrodidi.htm

 

[TLouth7]

I should clarify that I am not actually on the market for a new yacht, this is merely idle speculation. I am wondering if an older, heavier yacht (with an interior) could ever compete for actual speed with say a j-97, length for length.

The Aphrodite 101 certainly looks interesting. Compared to the Sigma 33 (that I currently sail) it is the same length and sail area, 80cm narrower and weighs 2/3rds as much. Does make you wonder where the 1.5T weight saving comes from, but I would love to have a go.

The Folkboat is lovely (as is its larger sister, the Stella), but at that length you are competing with a sportsboat such as a melges*. Clearly offwind in a blow the Folkboat doesn't stand a chance, but I wonder if it could hold its own to windward?

I must admit the Dix design doesn't do it for me, but I see how it could combine performance with a somewhat classic look.

*I realise that for most people the two boats are not competing as they serve rather different needs, but if you wanted a small yacht for weekend cruising and occasional racing and speed/fun was a factor (pubs sadly have closing times), it is not a stretch to imagine either fulfilling that role.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

Well as an academic study, have a look at the Spirit 37. I know it's just outside of your size constraints, but they are amongst the 'modern classics' that have combined the required looks with low displacement, narrow beam and low centres of gravity.

I'm not going to say they 'plane' (because a load of armchair experts will turn up here and start some argument about the definition of planing), but they do exceed their displacement speed. However long and slim is highly unlikely to ever beat fat, light and planing. You only have to look at the development of offshore racers (admittedly not in a classic style), but in the early days there were sailors who thought that being narrow and easily driven would be the way to go especially when short handed, but it never paid off in speed terms. Even in the Class 9.50 rules there was a trade off between beam and water ballast, but no one could make a case for the narrow boat whilst keeping displacement, keel, waterline length, etc the same.

 

[flaming]

I should clarify that I am not actually on the market for a new yacht, this is merely idle speculation. I am wondering if an older, heavier yacht (with an interior) could ever compete for actual speed with say a j-97, length for length.

Short answer, no.

 

[doug748]

I should clarify that I am not actually on the market for a new yacht, this is merely idle speculation. I am wondering if an older, heavier yacht (with an interior) could ever compete for actual speed with say a j-97, length for length....

The Folkboat is lovely (as is its larger sister, the Stella), but at that length you are competing with a sportsboat such as a melges*. Clearly offwind in a blow the Folkboat doesn't stand a chance, but I wonder if it could hold its own to windward?
....

No, otherwise racing design has been steaming in the wrong direction for a number of years.

Your proposition would stand a better chance if the comparison was between a typical new production cruiser (which sometimes have the trappings of fast design but in truth are not always great all round performers ) and an older sprightly type, updated.

 

[Chris 249]

Older yes, with interior yes, heavier no. Classic? Depends on your definition.

Some of the long, skinny but light European inland classes of the '70s-'90s are quite quick for their length in the right conditions. The Akros is about 30 ft long and faster than a Melges, so faster than a J/97. Not much of an interior, though, and at least sometimes they use traps. There's a similar boat called the Asso 99 and in the very light winds you often get on the lakes you can see them slipping along and tacking quickly when the Libera class (giant skiffs) and big cats are bogged down.

In a similar albeit slightly slower vein, the 34'Toucan is tough enough to have crossed the Atlantic singlehanded (in the cabin version) and done really well. Still comfortably quicker than a 97 judging from the German yardstick. In European lake races the non-cabin version can beat 18 Foot Skiffs across the line.

It's partly an interesting question because we English speakers of today judge boats by LOA. Decades ago we would have judged them by LWL or sail area or displacement. Each of them seems to create unhealthy extremes. Overall the modern boat has much more space for better pace, and more speed for its length.

PS - eons ago there was a 40 square metre turboed with bigger rig, traps and racks that used to race on the European lakes. It was an interesting sight to see a varnished classic with wings and traps, but it was nothing like as fast as the 44' modern Liberas of the day.

 

[TLouth7]

I guess there are two separate issues here: weight and beam.

It is easy to see that a lighter construction can always be faster, because either you have a lighter boat with less drag, or you can stick that weight on the bottom of the keel and increase the rig to match.

And it seems that the consensus is that beam (done right) is fast in all but a specific set of conditions (light wind, flat water).

I guess that makes sense given the state of modern yacht design, it would just be nice to imagine that you could take a reasonably light, narrow hull, add a large keel and rig and sail fast in style.

Oh well, I guess the only answer is to buy that Spirit yacht...

 

[flaming]

I guess there are two separate issues here: weight and beam.

It is easy to see that a lighter construction can always be faster, because either you have a lighter boat with less drag, or you can stick that weight on the bottom of the keel and increase the rig to match.

And it seems that the consensus is that beam (done right) is fast in all but a specific set of conditions (light wind, flat water).

I guess that makes sense given the state of modern yacht design, it would just be nice to imagine that you could take a reasonably light, narrow hull, add a large keel and rig and sail fast in style.

Oh well, I guess the only answer is to buy that Spirit yacht...

If you take a size, say 30 feet, and want the fastest yacht upwind that you can possibly have it would look very different to if you wanted the fastest yacht downwind.

And if you wanted a fast reaching boat it would be different again.

And then if you specify what wind strength you want to be fast in, those designs will change again.

And then if you specify the skill level of the sailor (pro or amateur) and if you want the boat to be forgiving or not, the designs change again.

But the general question as to whether a "modern classic" can be as quick as a well designed modern boat was I think answered by the link 30. Classic looking boat with a fairly modern keel and rudder.
Rates a lot, lot slower than a modern equivalent.

IRC rating for a Link 30 - 0.890
Rating for a J88 - 1.030.

140 points different, or 14% slower. That's a lot. And the J88 is a pretty middle of the road modern design. There are plenty of 30 foot boats that rate over 1.070.

 

[underdog]

Have a look at the Artekno H323. a bigger version of the international H boat.
Pictures in my album on my profile here

 

[ClaireJohnson]

You can buy a speed boat, that is small looks classic and it has a great speed.

 

[crewman]

Have a look at the Artekno H323. a bigger version of the international H boat.
Pictures in my album on my profile here

Or just look at the H boat. I think the racing version without guardwires is really nice looking.