Experiences with in-mast furling

[Tranona]

Quite right, because you grasp the issues. It's a educational resource to show people that adding weight aloft is fine, within limits. Depending on the boat and the weights involved.

Most people understand mass produced designs are cut from the roll.
You buy a boat; choose one set of options it will be less stable, choose others it will be more so. The designer has done his sums to stay out of courtroom, in either case. The only stability information you will be given is lightship, standard trim - if you are lucky.
Only the chronic optimist will take this as evidence that both options are the same.

You really do seem to see ill where none exists.

Have you read all the material I suggested?

Suggest you read posts#24/25/26 which clearly shows (assuming the secondhand account is correct) that builders do calculate stability for optional combinations and adjust the category if necessary. You will find it quite common for boats to be in different categories with different options, usually around rigs and keels as they have the biggest influence over stability. This happens particularly in the 30-35' size range which straddle Cat B and A

It would be very helpful if you gave the source of all your pronouncements as surely what you say is based on your ignorance as you provide no evidence to support them and indeed what evidence there is says you are wrong.

Perhaps if you really knew what you were talking about you would not have to rely on your favourite "everybody knows" which you use to hide your ignorance.

 

[pvb]

Would be interested in views from those who have USED in-mast furling.

I've used in-mast furling for the last 32 years, on 3 boats (Westerly Corsair, Hallberg Rassy 352 and now a Bavaria Cruiser 37). Properly set up, and properly maintained, it's a great thing to have. Not necessarily for racers, but for the rest of us who want sail handling to be simple and easy (and safe). Never experienced a jam - although I have on jib furling! I think your comment about the resale factor is correct.

 

[bitbaltic]

Thing is, on a boat up to about I reckon 40 ft, you can have amazingly effective single-line if you set the WHOLE system up properly (see my post on the thread about dyneema). So on boats of this size RR only offers disadvantages to that (weight aloft, performance and having to round up). Once you lose the ease of handling advantage the only advantages it has is that it’s cheaper (maybe much cheaper) than doing the whole thing properly, and easy for charterers or new buyers to understand what to do with it. No wonder lots of builders fit it.

 

[doug748]

You really do seem to see ill where none exists.

Have you read all the material I suggested?

Suggest you read posts#24/25/26 which clearly shows (assuming the secondhand account is correct) that builders do calculate stability for optional combinations and adjust the category if necessary. You will find it quite common for boats to be in different categories with different options, usually around rigs and keels as they have the biggest influence over stability. This happens particularly in the 30-35' size range which straddle Cat B and A

It would be very helpful if you gave the source of all your pronouncements as surely what you say is based on your ignorance as you provide no evidence to support them and indeed what evidence there is says you are wrong.

Perhaps if you really knew what you were talking about you would not have to rely on your favourite "everybody knows" which you use to hide your ignorance.

I have put forward several external sources. You, none.

Why not post the comprehensive stability information that came with your new boat?

 

[bitbaltic]

Technical question cos I honestly don’t know the answer but someone will. In light winds (say 10kn) you can pull the main up downwind on conventional systems by motoring at 6kn say to kill the apparent. Is this possible with RR or does it not like it?

 

[maby]

As far as I'm concerned, the primary advantage of in-mast furling is the ease of stowing the sail. Modern boats are putting the boom higher and higher to make the cockpit a large, clear space. On our previous boat (43 foot), I could barely reach the sail bag to fold the sail away. We have a full cockpit enclosure (bimini conversion) on the boat which further complicates matters - the end of the boom is right over the bimini top and I was unable to reach far enough back to zip or unzip the sail bag. It was getting to the point where we were seldom actually raising the sail - turning the boat into a rather slow MoBo.

 

[maby]

I guess that you can in both cases, but would you bother deploying the sail in 10kts of true wind? I don't think I would!

 

[bitbaltic]

I guess that you can in both cases, but would you bother deploying the sail in 10kts of true wind? I don't think I would!

30 ft boat, weighs 3 tonnes in cruising fit out, laminate sails and fully-battened main, SA/D 21.7. She’ll easily get north of 5 knots STW to windward in that in flat water (will be lucky to get four downwind).

So yes, always.

Maybe you need a Hanse

 

[maby]

30 ft boat, weighs 3 tonnes in cruising fit out, laminate sails and fully-battened main, SA/D 21.7. She’ll easily get north of 5 knots STW to windward in that in flat water (will be lucky to get four downwind).

So yes, always.

Maybe you need a Hanse

... or chop 12 feet off the boat?

 

[bitbaltic]

... or chop 12 feet off the boat?

Might improve the displacement to waterline ratio

Probably a better idea than buying one of Hanse’s hideous new offerings for sure!

 

[Tranona]

I have put forward several external sources. You, none.

Why not post the comprehensive stability information that came with your new boat?

You have problems with counting as you have posted two. One personal observations and the other completely irrelevant to the original question as well as being outdated.

I have referred you to the ISO standard on the subject of design and construction of boats. In it you will find the methods acceptable for measuring stability.

The stability data is in the handbook of all new boats as its inclusion is a requirement of the RDC. The Declaration of Conformity shows the Notifying Body that has approved the design and construction and the processes in place to ensure boats are built to the standards. In the case of my boat that is Germanischer Lloyds. It also includes a list of all the ISO standards used in the design and construction of the boat and its equipment.

So, when you buy a new boat, all of this information is available to you.

Might I remind you that the OP asked for experiences from users of in mast furling. As you do not seem to have any experience to offer on the subject I am not sure why you are bothering to post anything, let alone making unsubstantiated claims about what goes in in the design and construction of boats today.

 

[doug748]

Stop de waffleing and prove to us what you say.


It's easy for you, you have the proof at your fingertips.


If you have the stability information "in the handbook" and it identifies your boat as having in mast furling and an AVS of c127 deg - we can all see and accept it.

(Of course this would mean the standard boat would have an AVS of c 135 deg or more, which, with a ballast ratio of 25%, no-one has claimed, never, not ever. But lets save that till later.)

 

[jordanbasset]

What I do know is that having had in-mast furling om our last boat my wife was adamant that it would be a deal breaker if we did not have it on the next boat - so we did, easy quick and convenient

 

[rotrax]

What I do know is that having had in-mast furling om our last boat my wife was adamant that it would be a deal breaker if we did not have it on the next boat - so we did, easy quick and convenient

Three previous sailing vessels plus several that I have chartered have all had slab reefed conventional rigs.

They were OK with more than two crew, but First Mate and I found it harder work in our advancing years.

The current boat has in-mast and a single electric winch to carry out all trimming and furling functions on both sails.

Would we change back?

No way......................................

 

[Elemental]

The current boat has in-mast and a single electric winch to carry out all trimming and furling functions on both sails. Would we change back? No way......................................

And I have travelled in the opposite direction... I had in-mast furling for 6 years on the current boat ('1993 Beneteau). I tried a brand new main but was never happy with either the performance (being somewhat flat and roachless), nor the ability to manage the sail in heavy weather. A catastrophic mast failure resulted in the boat being re-rigged as a conventional slab set-up. Seperate luff/leech reefing penants lead into the cockpit and my partner and I can manage the sail easily in 30+kt of wind. The boat points much higher, and easily does 1/2 a knot or more better across most conditions. More importantly, the angle of heel is reduced as the new set up drives the boat forward more efficiently. Would we change back? - No way ......

 

[rotrax]

And I have travelled in the opposite direction... I had in-mast furling for 6 years on the current boat ('1993 Beneteau). I tried a brand new main but was never happy with either the performance (being somewhat flat and roachless), nor the ability to manage the sail in heavy weather. A catastrophic mast failure resulted in the boat being re-rigged as a conventional slab set-up. Seperate luff/leech reefing penants lead into the cockpit and my partner and I can manage the sail easily in 30+kt of wind. The boat points much higher, and easily does 1/2 a knot or more better across most conditions. More importantly, the angle of heel is reduced as the new set up drives the boat forward more efficiently. Would we change back? - No way ......

Your set up suits you, our set up suits us-whats not to like.

Life would be boring if we all aspired to the same things.....................................

 

[maby]

Having had in-mast furling jam badly once, I never really trust it and breathe a sigh of relief every time it agrees to roll back in. I would be happier with slab reefing, but I know from experience that I'm simply too old to manage slab on the size and style of boat that I want to own.

 

[snooks]

Here are my thoughts in in-mast furling:

https://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/how-to-a-trouble-free-furling-main

I recently had to reply to a letter from an American reader concerning the feature. He suggested that in-mast furling shouldn't be used offshore and definitely not for bluewater cruising. So I did a bit of asking around...

38% of yachts currently doing the World ARC have in-mast furling.

Out of over 70 yachts built by Discovery, all but two Discovery's have been built with in-mast furling. Many have done circumnavigations, nearly all do extended or offshore cruising.

I also contacted Magnus Rassy. He said that nearly 100% of all yachts HRs built, over 40ft, have in-mast furling.

Used correctly, there's no problem win in-mast furling, but just as you don't reef a slab reefing system going dead downwind, there are techniques to using in-mast furling.

 

[bitbaltic]

Used correctly, there's no problem win in-mast furling, but just as you don't reef a slab reefing system going dead downwind, there are techniques to using in-mast furling.

Well mine’s single line not slab but what’s the difference downwind?

I wouldn’t do any reefing on a dead run not cos of sail handling but cos of the difficulty for the helm.

I can reef or drop on a broad reach or close to a training run up to top f4 easily and often choose to do so. Lazyjacks help- sail collapses into them and all I have to do is pull down the last couple of metres to the head.

Did it a few weeks ago sailing onto the windward side of the pontoon at Dale (Milford) to kill boat speed and come alongside.

There’s no hard and fast rules. It’s all about how the sail system can be handled.

Still waiting for feedback on whether you can hoist a RR downwind by killing the apparent, has nobody tried?

 

[snooks]

Well mine’s single line not slab but what’s the difference downwind?

Trying to reef with the mainsail against the spreaders/shrouds is a thankless task