Evaluating Sailing Performance

[Amp1ng]

Prior to making my next boat purchase I have been attempting to assess the performance of potential boats against one another. With an appreciation of the fact that an individual’s view on boat sailing performance can be very subjective I’m trying to combine various owner feedback with some data analysis to determine what can likely be expected from a particular class of boat. In this instance by performance I’m referring to an ability to obtain hull speed on varying points of sail and ability to point to windward. I’m not interested in racing, I’m a cruising sailor but I like cruising boats that are safe, capable sea boats, efficient and exhilarating to sail.
The parameters I’ve been using to try and gauge likely performance are waterline length/displacement and sale area/displacement ratios, Portsmouth Numbers plus the averaged elapsed times for a given class competing in the round the island race for 2011/12/13. The averaged elapsed times are across all boats of a certain type relative to their average starting times to try and offset the benefits of craft leaving earlier on a favourable west going tide from the race start line and hitting the Needles and Bembridge on the tidal sweet spots.
The initial results have been interesting, the anticipated effect of extremes in terms of displacement and sail area are borne out by the racing times but some of the medium displacement and moderate sail area boats substantially and consistently out-perform those that on paper should be much easier to sail faster and in some cases by virtue of increased waterline length should move through the water faster anyway. An example of this would be the race results for the International Folkboat, on average for the last three years it has completed the circuit 20 mins quicker than the Contessa 32 despite the folkboat starting 5 mins later and also beats the Westerly Fulmar by an hour when the Fulmar sets off 30 mins behind it.

Anyone got a view on the validity of these observations or a proven/accepted method for comparing boat performance?

 

[doug748]

Some really interesting stuff there Amp1mg.

Off the top of my napper I might suggest that the sample is too small to make any firm conclusions. I know the three boats you mention very well. The Marieholm is a smart performer and a lovely boat, but in a slog the others would probably overhaul it. The Fulmar would suffer in comparison to both if the run of conditions did not feature heavy wind.

You are looking at some long in the tooth designs there, though, any observations about more trendy vehicles?

We often hear that this or that boat is "very fast" and are asked to believe that that is the same as good performance.

Going well on an inshore racecourse in flat water is all that is required for many racers. For the shorthanded cruiser it is one small aspect of sailing performance.

 

[mrming]

Post the boats you're interested in on here and chances are someone will have sailed on or against one. The problem with RTIR results is that one boat could be well tuned with decent sails and good crew, and another could be a bunch of people having a nice day out with a baggy roller genoa and tea and cake all round. Looking at the IRC classes would help filter out the day trippers a bit, but the cruisier boats might not be in there. As a general helper I would look at SA/D. Above 20 is getting racier and above 25 is a rocket. Watch out for older boats with big genoas having a low SA/D as it's calculated on the working jib. Bryon's list of PY numbers is also moderately useful: http://www.byronsoftware.org.uk/bycn/byhandicap.htm

 

[sailorman]

There is no way a Folkboat will beat a Co32 around the Island. it may only beat it by the handicapping system

 

[Amp1ng]

. Watch out for older boats with big genoas having a low SA/D as it's calculated on the working jib. [/url]

Interesting, this might explain certain variations to the expected.

I'm interested in the Contessa 26.

 

[mrming]

I've raced against a Contessa 26 a good few times but I have to say it wasn't exactly in top racing trim. Nonetheless my fairly racy 21 footer would have me on the brandies long before even a good CO26 got home. They can be a bit of a handicap bandit in the right conditions (hence RTIR wins etc) but I would never describe one as being exhilarating to sail. By all accounts an extremely well mannered boat which would look after you in conditions where many (including me) would have gone home, but not quick by any means.

 

[lpdsn]

Two things I'd say:

1) Portsmouth Yardstick is not a good absolute measure of a boat's performance. Some types of boats will attract much better crews and will therefore have a much higher handicap. You would need to filter out that effect to get useful data from PY numbers. IRC is more systematic (allegedly).

2) RTIR is an extremely poor measure of performance. It is pretty near the end of the spectrum of races affected by tide. To win it you don't need the best boat, you need a boat that sails at the right speed to catch the right tides and has a handicap to take maximum advantage of that. A well prepared and well sailed Contessa 26 hits that sweet spot. Don't expect the same boat to do well in the IRC Nationals, or indeed anywhere else.

 

[William_H]

I have been racing my little boat for 30 years in club races against a variety of types of boats. Certainly some types are a lot slower than others regardless of size. Strangely some boats of the same design /size can have a range of performance. Now this is perhaps largely due to crew./ skippers and sail condition etc but I certainly get the impression that some boats within a design are just slow regardless. Certainly a light boat with lots of sail can do well in light conditions. But if that same boat has efficeint reefing then it can also do well in heavy conditions for it's size. In heavy conditions water line length and tonnage seem to be your best guarantee of performance.
Now I really enjoy the racing (at very low level) To spend half an hour beating and tacking against someone else really sharpens your performance as helmsman and skipper.
I am convinced that a good racing boat makes a good cruiser. So I would suggest that you go to a range of clubs where ordinary cruising boats are raced and from results especially over a period you might start to get a feel for what boat you want. good luck olewill

 

[farmer.leo]

Performance of a boat set up for racing can be extremely different when the boat is loaded up for cruising. Most of the "fast" boats will be much slower, and the many of the "slow" boats won't change much in their performance. Think food, water, clothes, etc. and perhaps the heaviest item - beer.

 

[PaulR]

very interested in this thread as I have been doing almost exactly the same exercise (including comparing uncorrected time for RTIR) for 3 designs we are considering next (or to be more accurate been trying to compare 3 designs- sadly the ovni does not appear in the RTIR listing),

we thought the RTIR uncorrected times would be a very useful measure of real speed over a reasonable distance - especially bearing in mind each of the boats we are considering are much the same size and I assumed were starting at relatively the same time hence having largely similar tidal effects,

also been trying to pace ourselves against any examples of the designs we are considering next when on the water but frustratingly they never seem to be out when we are !

one thing we do believe strongly is that in many instances it is the nut on the end of the tiller which makes a huge impact on performance of any boat

 

[Neil_Y]

"safe, capable sea boats, efficient and exhilarating to sail."
If you are looking at older designs then one of the best and proven designs must be the 1990 vintage Beneteau figaro 30 boats, quick, big enough rig/sails/kite to be exhilarating when you want it and easy to single hand.

 

[mrming]

"safe, capable sea boats, efficient and exhilarating to sail."
If you are looking at older designs then one of the best and proven designs must be the 1990 vintage Beneteau figaro 30 boats, quick, big enough rig/sails/kite to be exhilarating when you want it and easy to single hand.

A bit of a leap from the Contessa 26 the OP is contemplating!

 

[jwilson]

Two things I'd say:

1) Portsmouth Yardstick is not a good absolute measure of a boat's performance. Some types of boats will attract much better crews and will therefore have a much higher handicap. You would need to filter out that effect to get useful data from PY numbers. IRC is more systematic (allegedly).

2) RTIR is an extremely poor measure of performance. It is pretty near the end of the spectrum of races affected by tide. To win it you don't need the best boat, you need a boat that sails at the right speed to catch the right tides and has a handicap to take maximum advantage of that. A well prepared and well sailed Contessa 26 hits that sweet spot. Don't expect the same boat to do well in the IRC Nationals, or indeed anywhere else.

+1
And a Contessa 26 is near-as-dammit a Folkboat anyway, hence also good RTIR race results for Folkboats, though it must be on handicap, not on the water.

 

[jwilson]

I have been racing my little boat for 30 years in club races against a variety of types of boats. Certainly some types are a lot slower than others regardless of size. Strangely some boats of the same design /size can have a range of performance. Now this is perhaps largely due to crew./ skippers and sail condition etc but I certainly get the impression that some boats within a design are just slow regardless. Certainly a light boat with lots of sail can do well in light conditions. But if that same boat has efficeint reefing then it can also do well in heavy conditions for it's size. In heavy conditions water line length and tonnage seem to be your best guarantee of performance.
Now I really enjoy the racing (at very low level) To spend half an hour beating and tacking against someone else really sharpens your performance as helmsman and skipper.
I am convinced that a good racing boat makes a good cruiser. So I would suggest that you go to a range of clubs where ordinary cruising boats are raced and from results especially over a period you might start to get a feel for what boat you want. good luck olewill

Helmed a borrowed one-design for a years worth of racing, and one boat almost always beat me, and another often did. I got lots of 2nds and 3rds, in a tired old boat but with not bad sails. At the end of the year the club had one race where you swapped boats by lottery, and I got the fast one. I was out of sight ahead.

In serious money-little-object racing classes there is little difference between the top flight of boats, but in ordinary club level racing there can be big differences.

 

[Hypocacculus]

While contemplating the speed figures is a fascinating exercise, I'm not sure I'd use them to choose my next boat.

The Contessa 32 is only 24 feet at the water line. This is why her hull speed is 6 knots and surprisingly perhaps, very similar to a Folkboat which (after a cursory look up) apparently has a hull speed of 5.96 knots. Both are excellent boats with impeccable pedigrees. However, If you own a Folkboat, you only have 4 feet of headroom and spend life on your knees, whereas on a Contessa 32 you get standing headroom and a head you can use without sticking your head through the forepeak hatch. The difference this makes to your comfort on board when cruising is huge and only by actually going and experiencing the boats can you decide whether this compromise is something you can live with. But small is beautiful and cheaper to park.

Compare a Contessa 32 with, say a modern style Beneteau First 300 (30ft) and the difference in accommodation space is again startling with the Contessa coming a very poor second. The First is a much faster boat and usually wipes the floor with a Contessa, although to my gratifying surprise, the owner I know said he struggled to shake a Contessa 32 off when beating into rough weather in a race recently. Having sailed in both, I know which one I'd choose if I wanted to race or which one I'd choose as a caravan, or which one I'd choose for short handed long distance cruising, or which one I'd rather be in if the weather blew up, or which one is the good looking boat that gets admiring comments from passers by, or which one is the total joy screeching downwind under spinnaker. It all depends on what you want out of your boat.

 

[doug748]

.....

I'm interested in the Contessa 26.

The Marieholm stacks up very well if you can find a good one. If you had plans for offshore the Contessa perhaps has it. For inshore and Europe maybe the Int Folkboat.

The Marieholm never did well in the UK as it was expensive. The rig is fractional, bendy and looks modern even today, the build quality is excellent, the cockpit long and the accommodation even smaller than the Contessa. I prefer the companionway of the IF, with a sprayhood, as it gives headroom at the galley and good access. The side decks are wide and uncluttered and the foredeck is big and flat. Power is supplied by an outboard, offset, in a lazarette well, it will push the boat forward; reverse is not be on the agenda. Most suitable outboards can be stored horizontally in the locker when not in use, a blanking plate seals the hole. Folkboat performance is bang on, the International Folkboat is of the best of breed.

Do you know of the Marieholm 26? - This is the one I would look for, same as the IF boat but bigger coachroof, small inboard, reduced cockpit, higher topsides = more accommodation. He is a bloggette from a forum member:

http://www.marieholm26.org/marieholm-26-the-boat/

 

[Neil_Y]

Yes, a bit different, I was replying to his first post which didn't seem to mention a preference just used the Co as an example of his analysis.

 

[Amp1ng]

Thanks all for the feedback. Just a couple more points regarding those stats I put in the original post:

There is no way a Folkboat will beat a Co32 around the Island. it may only beat it by the handicapping system

Correct the Co32 did beat the folkboat, however the elapsed time (not corrected) showed that the fastest Contessa 32 completed the race 12 mins quicker than the fastest Folkboat which is much less than I'd expect over 60 miles.

Two things I'd say:

1) ....... Some types of boats will attract much better crews and will therefore have a much higher handicap. You would need to filter out that effect to get useful data from PY numbers. IRC is more systematic (allegedly).

2) RTIR is an extremely poor measure of performance. It is pretty near the end of the spectrum of races affected by tide. To win it you don't need the best boat, you need a boat that sails at the right speed to catch the right tides and has a handicap to take maximum advantage of that. A well prepared and well sailed Contessa 26 hits that sweet spot. Don't expect the same boat to do well in the IRC Nationals, or indeed anywhere else.

As mentioned above, to try and cancel out some of the crew effect I looked at the delta between the fastest boats of a class that set off at similar times:

Out of the Co32, Co26 and Folkboat the fastest 32 was the fastest overall beating the folkboat by 12 mins and the Co26 by 25 mins. Assuming that the quickest of each class had a comparatively motivated and skilled crew coupled with the fact that they all set off within 10 mins of each other, then that must go some way to cancelling out tide and crew effects? This trend was repeated for 2011, 2012 and 2013 races therefore spanning heavy and light conditions. You can get the results off the RIR website.

 

[sailorman]

Thanks all for the feedback. Just a couple more points regarding those stats I put in the original post:





Correct the Co32 did beat the folkboat, however the elapsed time (not corrected) showed that the fastest Contessa 32 completed the race 12 mins quicker than the fastest Folkboat which is much less than I'd expect over 60 miles.




As mentioned above, to try and cancel out some of the crew effect I looked at the delta between the fastest boats of a class that set off at similar times:

Out of the Co32, Co26 and Folkboat the fastest 32 was the fastest overall beating the folkboat by 12 mins and the Co26 by 25 mins. Assuming that the quickest of each class had a comparatively motivated and skilled crew coupled with the fact that they all set off within 10 mins of each other, then that must go some way to cancelling out tide and crew effects? This trend was repeated for 2011, 2012 and 2013 races therefore spanning heavy and light conditions. You can get the results off the RIR website.

The Co32 helm must have been carp

 

[lpdsn]

As mentioned above, to try and cancel out some of the crew effect I looked at the delta between the fastest boats of a class that set off at similar times:

Out of the Co32, Co26 and Folkboat the fastest 32 was the fastest overall beating the folkboat by 12 mins and the Co26 by 25 mins. Assuming that the quickest of each class had a comparatively motivated and skilled crew coupled with the fact that they all set off within 10 mins of each other, then that must go some way to cancelling out tide and crew effects? This trend was repeated for 2011, 2012 and 2013 races therefore spanning heavy and light conditions. You can get the results off the RIR website.

It sounds like you are tending towards the Co26. In the end, if that's the sort of boat you want that's what you should get. As a bit of a caveat, don't expect her to point well compared to a more modern boat. The ratio of lift and drag from a keel like that is never going to allow you to point high, but it gives you other advantages, like being able to cope better with heavier weather.

Another word of warning is that the Co26 is a bit of a cult boat, which will make her easier to sell, but means you will probably pay quite a premium. There must be dozens of vaguely-folkboat-derived designs from that era that will be much cheaper.