Estimate time and cost to sail from Baltic Sea to Mallorca

charles_reed said:
However starting from where you are why not come up the Rhine, across on the Main and then down the Danube to the Black Sea. That would take you about 10 weeks to do comfortably. I know two boats who've done that and both have found it inexpensive and great fun.
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Today I was in the marina testing the autopilot and my neighbor popped up from his boat's cockpit (42 feet, sailboat) and he told me that he bought his boat in Greece a few years ago and then sailed up through the French canals and at one point went into the German canals... up to Travemunde/Ljubeck.... (i.e. he did not go to Calais and then sailed up the North Sea, he just went straight into the Baltic using German canals).

He said he will give me a map with the route to show me, but I'd like to hear if any of you have heard that this is actually doable with a 1.58m draft because IF it is possible, then it will solve all my troubles: I would sail down to the German Baltic Sea coast (probably 3-4 days) and then enter the German canals and it's going to be a quiet, safe trip to the Med (mast shipped by lorry at a cost, but hey you can't have everything...).

This is the only map I've found with some channels from France that may link to german channels (check channel 32, the Rhone–Rhine Canal on right hand side of map).
http://postimg.org/image/fk8ilk8u1/

EDIT: here is another map, all Europe:
http://www.portofdortmund.com/fileadmin/img/englische_Fassung/73_europa__ische_wasserstrassenkarte.jpg

Your comments are very welcome as always, especially if you know people that did this route.
 
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I can only comment on the German part. Yes it is doable with 1.60 m draft. You enter in Lübeck and leave the canal system in Duisburg to go upriver on the Rhine. Here you will have to negotiate currents( less in Winter, Peak vs. end Spring ), Your boat should be good for 7 kn constantly. Then you go up the Mosel in Koblenz, this should be fine til Nancy.
Check out your VHF, it should have ATIS!
I can not comment on the French canals after Nancy with your draft.
 
Fendant said:
I can only comment on the German part. Yes it is doable with 1.60 m draft. You enter in Lübeck and leave the canal system in Duisburg to go upriver on the Rhine. Here you will have to negotiate currents( less in Winter, Peak vs. end Spring ), Your boat should be good for 7 kn constantly. Then you go up the Mosel in Koblenz, this should be fine til Nancy.
Check out your VHF, it should have ATIS!
I can not comment on the French canals after Nancy with your draft.
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Thank you Fendant.
My VHF is hand-held, Nexus NX1000, I doubt it has ATIS.

When you say 7kn constantly, do you mean you have to go against a current how strong? What happens if I only manage to go 6kn?

After Nancy it should be fine up to 1.80m draft, as seen here:
http://www.french-waterways.com/practicalities/french-canal-depths.html
 
Fendant said:
I can only comment on the German part. Yes it is doable with 1.60 m draft. You enter in Lübeck and leave the canal system in Duisburg to go upriver on the Rhine. Here you will have to negotiate currents( less in Winter, Peak vs. end Spring ), Your boat should be good for 7 kn constantly. Then you go up the Mosel in Koblenz, this should be fine til Nancy.
Check out your VHF, it should have ATIS!
Click to expand...

Is there any guide/book you would recommend for the german part?
EDIT:
It seems that to carry a boat with more than 5HP engin, in German waterways one needs a license to be taken after a german language exam. This is a bummer that may kill the whole idea.
 
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I think he means your boat needs to be capable of a constant 7kn. The canal and down river sections are no problem bit the upstream section of the Rhine has an average current of 3kt and Max 5kt in places. Flow rates are quoted on websites in cu m/hr which is not very helpful to boaters. We found when going down the Rhône that we often reached 10kt over the ground. On the one occasion we had to go upstream, we went VERY slow. You need to keep some throttle on all the time to give you steerage way.
Voyager 5 said:
Thank you Fendant.
My VHF is hand-held, Nexus NX1000, I doubt it has ATIS.

When you say 7kn constantly, do you mean you have to go against a current how strong? What happens if I only manage to go 6kn?

After Nancy it should be fine up to 1.80m draft, as seen here:
http://www.french-waterways.com/practicalities/french-canal-depths.html
Click to expand...
 
ghostlymoron said:
I think he means your boat needs to be capable of a constant 7kn. The canal and down river sections are no problem bit the upstream section of the Rhine has an average current of 3kt and Max 5kt in places. Flow rates are quoted on websites in cu m/hr which is not very helpful to boaters. We found when going down the Rhône that we often reached 10kt over the ground. On the one occasion we had to go upstream, we went VERY slow. You need to keep some throttle on all the time to give you steerage way.
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If he's starting from the Baltic, his upstream travel is only about 8% of the total - one of the Germans who went that way reported some enormous daily mileages coming down the Danube!! Like 124 nm in an 8hr day.
 
charles_reed said:
If he's starting from the Baltic, his upstream travel is only about 8% of the total - one of the Germans who went that way reported some enormous daily mileages coming down the Danube!! Like 124 nm in an 8hr day.
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That is interesting indeed.

The problem for me remains the LICENSE:

I have read many threads on this and it is not clear if the ICC/CEVNI license will be accepted or not by the german water police.
I do not want to pay a big fine!
And I can't take a german license exam either.
 
Voyager 5 said:
That is interesting indeed.

The problem for me remains the LICENSE:

I have read many threads on this and it is not clear if the ICC/CEVNI license will be accepted or not by the german water police.
I do not want to pay a big fine!
And I can't take a german license exam either.
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Yes, the ICC is acceptable. In fact it was set up specifically for this purpose. You will need the CEVNI endorsement which is just a multiple choice questionnaire on the regulations. Strictly speaking you also need it for the French canals, but they seem more relaxed about it.
 
Tranona said:
Yes, the ICC is acceptable. In fact it was set up specifically for this purpose. You will need the CEVNI endorsement which is just a multiple choice questionnaire on the regulations. Strictly speaking you also need it for the French canals, but they seem more relaxed about it.
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Thank you Tranona, that is a relief.
 
Voyager 5 said:
Interesting Ken, which part did you enjoy sailing the most?
Which one was more stressing?
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The most satisfying bit - hitting the Chenal de Four pretty much dead on slack water (as planned) and sailing out from under cloud into sunshine at the same time.

The best bit - undoubtedly approaching the Strait of Gibraltar and seeing sunrise over the hills of N Africa.

The most apprehension before hand was the Biscay crossing - once you're out there there's no way to bail out if something goes wrong. Actually it was pretty straightforward

The most stressful - sailing into the Bay of Algeciras/Gibraltar - LOTS of shipping, moving and at anchor and going in a variety of directions. Makes the Solent seem like a kiddie's nursery.

The most OMG - huge electrical storm throughout our last night at sea. When we closed land the sea was full of detritus - palm leaves, bamboo, plastic lawn, garden furniture because of flooding ashore. We tucked into St Raphael Marina to grab a few hours sleep - their computers had been knocked out and the electric gate to the car park was out of action because the controller had fried. How the lighting missed us I simply don't know.
 
On the topic of German sailing licenses, it has been noted by me in another thread that currently Germany only requires a license for sailboats with engine power > 11.02 KW (roughly >15 HP), this is a recent change in the german laws for sailors, but it applies only to coastal waters, while the inland waterways do still require a license (ICC+CEVNI).


Now, I was reading on another forum that "The Kiel Canal is a doddle -- no CEVNI needed".

Can anyone comment on this? Does that mean that if I travel through the Kiel canal with a small sailboat with less than 15 HP then no german license, no ICC, no CEVNI are needed?
I have read the Kiel Canal is NOT an inland waterway. Some said so, not sure if it is true or not.

PS - I promise I will tell you my conclusions on the best route to bring a boat from the Baltic-to-the-Med once I finish the analysis of all the regulations and cost evaluations (transport, channels, sailing routes, etc.).
 
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You are right. the situation on inland waterways is even more complex than for coastal waters through different states. Kiel Canal is autonomous and not covered by the CEVNI rules, but not sure whether they have any specific requirements for transiting yachts. Would think unlikely as many yachts from UK use it. Best to contact the canal authorities direct.
 
All right, so after a very long number of studies of all the possible routes, here is what I have concluded, what are the best options to take a boat from the Baltic to the Med:

The conclusion applies to take a boat from the Baltic Sea to the Med, not specifically to any part of the Med.

1) European Canal Routes: in general this is a big NO NO NO, first because is not cheap at all (moorings and fuel cost), second managing all the locks is a big pain in the butt, third there are plenty of confusing regulations overlapping each other and room for fines in several countries (especially Germany), plus the depth of the channels is a concern (may be too low somewhere) and taking the mast down is a cost and transporting it is trouble (or a cost if you ship it). Finally the amount of work on the engine gear will certainly reduce your engine life or break it.
With this I do not want to say that if you love to sail through the channels you should not do it, I am just saying that if your purpose is to move the boat fast, cheap and without bureaucracy the channels are not the right path.
I am sure someone will disagree with me.

2) Hire a skipper and sail from Baltic to Med: probably around 3-4000 eur cost plus fuel, food and tickets - expensive and you never know how they treat your boat, unless you are aboard (but then why hire a skipper?)

3) Sail to Germany + truck transport to Adriatic Sea to Koper, Slovenia: this is the best option. Fast, relatively cheap (got a 1800 EUR quote for a return empty load) and quick. Only pain in the ass and additional cost is to take the mast up and down (they asked me 440 EUR+VAT in Slovenia!) which you can do by yourself if you are at least 2 person on board (I will be alone, bummer).
I plan to go down this route but right now I am stuck with a mechanical problem.

4) Sail by yourself from Baltic to Med: good experience, adventure, cheapest route (600 eur a month for marinas if you avoid the peak summer season and the most expensive marinas and maybe sometimes you anchor at sea for the night, weather permitting). Fuel should not cost too much if you do not go by engine all the time, maybe 3-400 eur.
You do not take the mast down, saves time and trouble.
This trip can probably be done in 2.5 months if you stop every night to sleep. If you have a crew member and you keep sailing all the time you can do it in one month and there are no marina costs.
This could be a very good alternative to option #3), but you need the good weather season (March-September), so it is limited by that, while option #3) can be done at ANY time.

5) Sail down to La Rochelle then put boat on a lorry to the Med: this reduces the sailing time versus option #4) and avoids sailing around Spain and to France, however it costs probably 1500-1800 EUR for the lorry, plus mast step/unstep, cranes, so I would then rather use option #3) as the lorry cost is the same and it avoids you to sail from Germany to La Rochelle, you put your boat on a truck in Germany with option #3 and end of the story, much faster, less wear and tear on the boat.

I hope the above can help other fellow sailors that want to bring their boat from the Baltic to the Med.
 
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Voyager 5 said:
Hi guys, I am new to the forum, very nice to meet all of you.

I have been an avid sailor and windsurfer since I was 4 years old, and I finally got my own first boat, a 28 ft sailboat and I plan now to sail it single-handed from the Baltic Sea to Mallorca.

I know a lot of people has done this before, I am trying to estimate the sailing time, assuming I sail about 40-50 NM a day (10 hours a day at 4-5NM/hour), sleeping overnight in marinas, I come up with a 65-85 days period on a ~3400 NM route (starting near Stockholm and ending in Palma de Mallorca).
This assumes NOT crossing the Bay of Biscay, but going along the coast of France, thus it takes longer.

Here is a map of the route:
Capture.png


Is it my estimate overall too optimistic?
(I know that I have not included days where bad weather or storms could force me to stay put and wait for a better window, this would make my estimate longer).

I would be really grateful if any of you that has done this route or a part of it can offer his perspective to calculate the miles one can do per day.
Thanks.
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Making long distances like that, by day sailing and berthing or anchoring every night, is really tedious. A key factor is that you cannot assume that you will do it every day, day in and day out, because you will not always have the weather.

Much better to pick good weather windows and sail a few good long mile-making passages.
 
Voyager 5 said:
3) Sail to Germany + truck transport to Adriatic Sea to Koper, Slovenia[/B]: this is the best option. Fast, relatively cheap (got a 1800 EUR quote for a return empty load) and quick. Only pain in the ass and additional cost is to take the mast up and down (they asked me 440 EUR+VAT in Slovenia!) which you can do by yourself if you are at least 2 person on board (I will be alone, bummer).

Well you need in fact 4 people for stepping up the mast. One will be the crane Operator, 1 is responsible for guiding the mast foot into Position, one will be responsible for the genua furler preventing overbending and attaching it to the bow plate. Then you need one rover as according to the famous rigger Murphy something will get stuck or tangled. These helpers are needed for about 30 - 60 minutes.
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Voyager 5 said:
All right, so after a very long number of studies of all the possible routes, here is what I have concluded, what are the best options to take a boat from the Baltic to the Med:


3) Sail to Germany + truck transport to Adriatic Sea to Koper, Slovenia: this is the best option. Fast, relatively cheap (got a 1800 EUR quote for a return empty load) and quick. Only pain in the ass and additional cost is to take the mast up and down (they asked me 440 EUR+VAT in Slovenia!) which you can do by yourself if you are at least 2 person on board (I will be alone, bummer).
I plan to go down this route but right now I am stuck with a mechanical problem.
.
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If you still want to go to Majorca surely Southern France would be more convenient than Slovenia. Also would have thought not too much more, probably less when you factor the cost and time of getting the yacht from Slovenia to Majorca?
 
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