Essential pre purchase or even pre survey checks

[pcatterall]

Our potential group purchase has moved to another stage that needs consideration especially as several parties are involved.
We have been considering what elements of our own checks are vital and that we cannot really see ( some of the yachts on our list are up to 30years old).
We can get an idea about the engine from its appearance ( careful owner?) how it starts and runs. Rigging can show issues but needs changing every 10 years or so.
Sails can be inspected as can winches etc so there is a lot that experienced boat owners with a good check list can see
Some other issues may be less simple to spot. Deck moisture can be checked, decks tapped and pressed for give, some keel bolt tops could be seen in the bilges.
If the yacht is out of the water then the damp meter may reveal Osmosis. keel/hull seal can be examined but may have recently been covered up, prop and rudder can be examined
as could hull fittings.
The boats in question are in the 30/40k range. How far should we go? What could we leave to general impressions( and chance!) Would you insist on a survey?

 

[Boathook]

I was looking at a new to me boat and the only way to get fully comp insurance is to get a survey done by a surveyor who is a member of a "surveying society". The fully comp insurance doesn't seem to cost much more than 3rd party in the UK.
A surveyor sees many boats than I ever will, and knows where and what to look for.

I have after viewing quite a few boats put an offer on one subject to survey. Offer was accepted so I got a survey done. Adjusted my offer due to a few extra faults found which was accepted. Survey has in someway not costed anything.

 

[Tranona]

Two good sources. RYA book amazon.co.uk/Buying-Secondhand-Boat-Mandy-Peters/dp/1906435456 or any surveyor for what they cover in a survey such as this one from Nick Vass omega-yachtservices.co.uk/list-of-items-checked-during-a-survey

 

[Ceirwan]

I think if multiple parties are involved in the purchase, then a survey should be an absolute no brainer to satisfy all parties.

But other than that, anything that you can try and operate, then do it, in addition to your list above:
- Do all the electronics work, is the VHF receiving?
- Electrics inside, try all the systems, lights, water, fridge, nav lights, make sure any gauges are working, does the shore power work? What about the battery charger. When were the batteries last replaced?
- Steering, does the rudder move freely? any play in the bearings, clunks etc.
- Deck gear, does it all work, what condition is the running rigging in?
- Engine, as well as starting and running, does the throttle move freely along with the forward and ahead select? When was it last serviced? If saildrive, when was the seal last done? Are there spares onboard, impellers, filters, belts etc. (a good set of spares can suggest someone actually knows what they're doing and looking after it)
- Bilges, dry? (a little water down the mast no issue), cracking or damage in way of the keel grid structure? pumps working?
- Any obvious leaks from deck fittings, check backs of lockers etc, also check for water damage to wooden veneers which can be a give away of long standing leaks.

Obviously I could go on a lot longer, it can help to write down what you're checking for as its easy to forget at the time.
Hopefully the owner will leave you alone to look around the boat, although you sometimes get the one who likes to sit watching you the whole time.

As Boathook above mentioned, normally you will agree a price subject to survey & should anything arise, then you can renegotiate, or pull out.

As a caveat though, ask around about surveyors, because the quality of the survey you can get will vary wildly. And that includes YDSA surveyors, judging from some of the ones I've seen, the bar for entry, at least for leisure boat surveys, doesn't seem all that high.

 

[Refueler]

I was looking at a new to me boat and the only way to get fully comp insurance is to get a survey done by a surveyor who is a member of a "surveying society". The fully comp insurance doesn't seem to cost much more than 3rd party in the UK.
A surveyor sees many boats than I ever will, and knows where and what to look for.

I have after viewing quite a few boats put an offer on one subject to survey. Offer was accepted so I got a survey done. Adjusted my offer due to a few extra faults found which was accepted. Survey has in someway not costed anything.

I was not a member of a 'Surveying Society' .... I had many friends who also were not members and none of us had any trouble with Insurance Co acceptance. There were occasional requests for evidence of previous experience in the work .. that was all.

I'm surprised at your Fully Comp costing not much more than 3rd Party ... that certainly was not my experience in UK.

As to using a Surveyor (if not required by Insurance Co) is really a 'peace of mind' matter. For me - I am more than happy to buy a boat without a survey .. but then again I do have 'time served' inspecting boats !

I've had an odd report forwarded to me in the past - people asking what I thought of items mentioned in them ... and I have to say that the amount of BS and nit-picking rubbish astounded me. Trouble is such would then if submitted to Ins Co - be noted and could affect later claims.

 

[Bobc]

Depends how much you know about boats and to your view on risk. If there are 4 of you, then your outlay is sub-£10k each. Not a vast sum in the scheme of things.

You have to consider;- what's the worst that can happen? If you are happy to check the rig, engine, etc., yourselves, then the only really big issue that you might not spot is osmosis. All boats of the age you're looking at will have moisture, and probably osmosis of some stage.

Were it me, I would get everyone together, and ask them which of the following they want to do:- 1./ Get a survery done. 2./ Don't get a survey done and take a decision based on your own inspection.

Personally, I wouldn't bother, but that's because I reckon I will find more than a surveyor will.

 

[IanCC]

You will need a survey for insurance.
Take photos of everything everywhere, point your camera into everything and blast away. You don't even know what you are taking pictures of. Then you have evidence to sue the surveyor. Check the surveyor contract carefully, some preclude any come back.

Research a good surveyor, they will be busy, wait. Lots are complete charlatans.

Engine. Get Nigel Calders book, section on diy engine survey. A lot of yacht surveyors won't touch engine.

Insist on trial sail before purchase to see if things work. Does mainsail go up and down. See what revs engine will go up to. Does it blow smoke under max power. Does anchor winch work etc etc.

 

[Minerva]

One of my best value spends in sailing was when I got a survey done on a boat on which I’d had my offer accepted. I spent an enjoyable 6hr day with the surveyor going over the boat top to bottom.

First aspect of being good value as it stopped me buying a dog in cosmetically OK condition that beyond the surface needed a lot of structural work.

The second and arguably the most valuable bit was seeing first hand the method and eye of the surveyor. How do they go over the boat with a clear system to see what’s there without the rose tinted glasses of a biased would be buyer.

Despite being around and owning boats for decades, it was very educational and I’d well recommend it.

 

[westernman]

I'm surprised at your Fully Comp costing not much more than 3rd Party ... that certainly was not my experience in UK.

The owner having an ICC helps reduce the insurance cost.

 

[westernman]

As a caveat though, ask around about surveyors, because the quality of the survey you can get will vary wildly. And that includes YDSA surveyors, judging from some of the ones I've seen, the bar for entry, at least for leisure boat surveys, doesn't seem all that high.

It is also well worth being present when the surveyor is there, to understand what he really checked, how, and to understand what the results really mean for you. And also to understand what was not checked.

 

[fredrussell]

Ceirwan’s list (above) seems like a good place to start, but for me, a survey (cost shared between four parties) is a no brainier. Couple of hundred quid each? Less quite probably.

 

[fredrussell]

I'm surprised at your Fully Comp costing not much more than 3rd Party ... that certainly was not my experience in UK.

I can’t speak for marine insurance, but when I got quoted for car insurance recently I was surprised to find that 3rd party was now pretty much the same cost as fully comp.
I suppose the greatest risk for insurer is not damage to your relatively cheap boat; it’s you ploughing it in to a Spirit yacht at 6 knots.

 

[dunedin]

I think if multiple parties are involved in the purchase, then a survey should be an absolute no brainer to satisfy all parties.

……..

That was also my initial thought- easier to make a call and go with no survey as a personal buyer, but with a group could be problematic if problems arise after purchase. I would only go no survey it it is a unanimous view (not a majority vote, which would be the worst position).

 

[NBs]

I bought my previous boat in England and used a highly reputable inspector. The work was otherwise thorough and accurate, but he failed to notice three unfortunate faults. Oil was leaking from the bottom seal of the second engine, and there were small leaks from the upper seals of both stern drivers. In addition, both cone clutches lock up softly. So I ended up with about €5,000 worth of problems that I think could have been detected. I inspected my next boat myself in Germany and am satisfied. I have also inspected my previous couple of boats myself.

 

[xyachtdave]

We’ve just bought a boat a little higher up the budget range but of similar age as the OP is considering and didn’t bother with a survey for these reasons -

1) we have both owned our own boats for 20 years, done all our own maintenance and know our way around them.

2) we spent around 3 hours thoroughly looking around everything accessible

3) the seller worked within the marine industry and was a really good bloke.

So far I’ve not found anything he’s bodged up!

His interest in helping us with for example access to it on a mid river pontoon didn’t end when we’d paid him.

4) the known problems and issues with this type of boat had all been addressed professionally.

We came to the conclusion the £1500 saved for a lift and survey could be put to better use in the boat improvement fund.

Currently selling the other boat, I’ve had some really tedious enquiries (which I’ve answered politely) from people that think they’re going to buy a boat and never spend a penny on it again.

At this age range you’ll occasionally be fixing or upgrading something unless it’s had 3 times the purchase price spent on it recently by the previous owner.

 

[pcatterall]

I was looking at a new to me boat and the only way to get fully comp insurance is to get a survey done by a surveyor who is a member of a "surveying society". The fully comp insurance doesn't seem to cost much more than 3rd party in the UK.
A surveyor sees many boats than I ever will, and knows where and what to look for.

I have after viewing quite a few boats put an offer on one subject to survey. Offer was accepted so I got a survey done. Adjusted my offer due to a few extra faults found which was accepted. Survey has in someway not costed anything.

Concerning the survey for insurance comment. If the seller has had a recent survey done will this not satisfy the insurers? Plus as we are buying in Spain how can we be sure of the validity of the survey. Our last boat was surveyed in Spain by one of the few brit surveyors living there, It was not cheap!

 

[Tranona]

Concerning the survey for insurance comment. If the seller has had a recent survey done will this not satisfy the insurers? Plus as we are buying in Spain how can we be sure of the validity of the survey. Our last boat was surveyed in Spain by one of the few brit surveyors living there, It was not cheap!

Depends on the insurer. You will only find out what is acceptable when you ask for a quote.

Most of the replies here are based on UK experience. You may (will) find it different in Spain. The self inspection principles are the same, but suggest you ask your current insurer whether they will insure the boat you intend buying and what they will require in the way of a survey or condition report.

 

[Refueler]

Depends on the insurer. You will only find out what is acceptable when you ask for a quote.

Most of the replies here are based on UK experience. You may (will) find it different in Spain. The self inspection principles are the same, but suggest you ask your current insurer whether they will insure the boat you intend buying and what they will require in the way of a survey or condition report.

For what its worth ... when I approached Insurer for my 38ft in Latvia - the German Insurers via Estonian Brokers issued without survey - based on 'self declaration'.

 

[westernman]

For what its worth ... when I approached Insurer for my 38ft in Latvia - the German Insurers via Estonian Brokers issued without survey - based on 'self declaration'.

Could that be a trap?
If it breaks, is it because you did not check it properly?