EPIRB or flares?

[William_H]

Certainly around here EPIRB with GPS would be the best bet and value for money. (That is after a VHF )
Flares come a last place in terms of value for rescue for money and life.
However around here we must have all 3.
Regarding time taken for authorities to check on the owner of the EPIRB for likely hood of them being in distress, this might take time but if proved positive gives more incentive for full scale search and rescue effort. No matter what, you are likely to be in the water for some time (hours) good luck olewill

 

[Woodlouse]

UK coastal then a VHF and flares are all that's needed. Epirbs are great for offshore, but I think a bit slow compared to the vhf for summoning help inshore. The only time I would say that is reversed is for PLB's. Offshore I reckon they are close to useless, since if you go overboard mid Atlantic then there is little chance of Falmouth coastguard getting to you in time whilst the boat would not have a clue as to your position. In more coastal environments though there have been several instances of people being rescued thanks to their PLB's.

As to flares, I've been convinced by watching the navy let off a white flare at half two in the morning well off Portland Bill during an exercise only to have the guard boat get a call from the coastguard within a minute checking in because someone had called about a flare. They are still a fantastic means of getting attention and have the benefit that almost any joe public that sees it will know to raise the alarm, rather than everyone within sight being oblivious to ones peril as would be the case setting off an Epirb.

 

[rob2]

I think it is a shame that flares have such a bad reputation. I've tried a few and some just wouldn;t ignite. Vefore the handheld pyrotechnic types ships used verry pistols, a far more reliable system. Unfortunately the cartridges were not all that powerful with minimal height and short burn times. If they had been developed further, we would have a much better visual alert available, but I suspect that governments would not allow us to carry sawn-off shotguns as signalling equipment. I used to know a guy who still had a pistol, but it required a firearms certificate and the local boys in blue kept trying to impose ridiculous "security" measures which would have prevented its use within an hour of an incident!

I well remember sitting on the boat between the scrubbing piles waiting to ground and be lifted into the yard. The local lads thought it hilarious to nip up to the corner shop and buy rockets (early November) which they would fire at us. It took all my reserve and a firm hand from the crew to stop me getting out a parachute flare and shooting back!

Rob.

 

[LadyInBed]

Bearing in mind the OP said UK coastal,

Not quite, he said 'UK waters' which (to me) could put you further off shore than just hopping along the coast.

Problem with EPIBs & PLBs, other vessels don't hear them.

True, but you would hope that VHF would also be used.

 

[Iliade]

I carry several EPIRBs, but I have only ever had cause to use a red hand held flare. The o/b bracket punched through the transom when crossing the harbour bar (a minor one) and there was a fishing boat alongside. I managed to hobble back in without sinking, but was greatly comforted by the presence of the fisherman alongside. The lead times of an EPIRB would have rendered them useless in this situation.

Another day, this time lovely and sunny, I happily sailed past a local mobo anchored just outside of the harbour. Meanwhile they were on the radio to the coastguard trying to arrange a lifeboat tow in! An orange smoke, a red hand-held or even a wave! could have solved their problem in moments. (I had a motor, but no fixed radio fitted at that time.)

An EPIRB is going to have no effect whatsoever on the steamer about to run you down in the night; Neither is a white flare, but at least you can tell St.Peter that you tried...

 

[Minchsailor]

I don't think it is either/or.

Flares should get an immediate response - red flare, dial 999. It is an emergency for sure.

There will be a delay with the EPIRB. It has to be activated, then takes a while to get a GPS position before it can transmit. The CG will not act until they have a 'resolved' position. In a recent incident this took 45 mins. For full details see:
www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/477259/MAIBInvReport23_2015.pdf

I quote (with due acknowledgements):

At 1104 MRCC Falmouth was informed of the receipt of a second transmission from
Ocean Way’s EPIRB, via a low earth-orbiting satellite, which had been received by a
French satellite tracking station.........

.....At 1145 a further transmission from Ocean Way’s EPIRB was received at UKMCC
via a low earth-orbiting satellite, which gave a resolved position for the beacon of
55° 48.56’ north, 001° 09.19’ east

There is a lot more detail and it is worth reading this report to understand the MRC and CG procedures. BUT an EPIRB activation is not instantaneous, and it will be some time before it is treated as an 'emergency'.

I carry both, but then I do sail outside 'UK waters'.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Flares have an independence from other systems on the boat that is worth considering in my opinion. However, I agree that VHF DSC, PLB and EPIRB are more reliable methods of communicating an emergency these days.

 

[nigelmercier]

An EPIRB is a no-brainer. But I still have red flares until I see a SOLAR approved LED or LASER type.

 

[ShinyShoe]

Bearing in mind the OP said UK coastal, VHF would be my first option as other boats in the vicinity should hear the call, followed by flares, then mobile phone. OTOH, if regular single-hander, then PLB would be best.

OK first off the question was Flares vs EPIRB. I would assume many have assumed there was already a VHF. Have to say I'd put a (waterproofed) mobile above Flares! Why is a PLB best if SH?

Problem with EPIBs & PLBs, other vessels don't hear them.

True but if you have a VHF they either didn't hear it either or you for some reason are unable to VHF it. CG will do a Mayday Relay when they are satisfied it needs investigation. They will do the same for a reported Flare, but they may not know what they are reporting other than "Flare sighted 3 miles off XXX" - so if the vessel isn't falling apart and there is several vessels in the area how does the other traffic in the area know who might need help if the Flare is now extinguished

Lifeboat shouts often instigated by flares being seen from shore.

Indeed they are. In the last 3 years do you know how many have been genuine flares seen off the UK coast without a distress alert received via other means and how many were unable to locate anything or were attributed to other sources with good intent? I'm 99% certain its far more via EPIRB/PLB than Flares. But more still by VHF and Mobile. Mind you none by bucket of tar on fire ;-)

UK coastal then a VHF and flares are all that's needed.

Utter rubbish! VHF yes, but Flares need someone to see them. A standard Flare pack contains what... (Inshore 2 red + 2 orange, offshore 4 para, 4 red, 2 bouyant orange). Thats not a lot if someone isn't looking in the right direction. We don't know how often flares are activated on boats that sink with loss of crew.

Epirbs are great for offshore, but I think a bit slow compared to the vhf for summoning help inshore.

Yes but are they slower than an unseen Flare. If no-one hears your VHF why would they see the Flare? Plenty of VHF blackspots. Plenty of bits of UK coast not over looked by any roads etc. 4 Red Para plus 4 Red Hand Helds gives a total of 8x40seconds burn time = 320 seconds. so ~ 5minutes...

The only time I would say that is reversed is for PLB's. Offshore I reckon they are close to useless, since if you go overboard mid Atlantic then there is little chance of Falmouth coastguard getting to you in time whilst the boat would not have a clue as to your position. In more coastal environments though there have been several instances of people being rescued thanks to their PLB's.

Whats the definition of offshore. Yes Mid Atlantic if you aren't in a raft you are in serious poo. But you are no matter what. If you are more than 12miles off the coast are you not offshore? Even 150miles off the coast is rescuable. A flare there wont help.

As to flares, I've been convinced by watching the navy let off a white flare at half two in the morning well off Portland Bill during an exercise only to have the guard boat get a call from the coastguard within a minute checking in because someone had called about a flare. They are still a fantastic means of getting attention and have the benefit that almost any joe public that sees it will know to raise the alarm,

MOST? or SOME?
You can't rely on the general public to stop in the street if you collapse in front of them ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufs8cKyzLvg ) so I think its optimistic to rely on the public "calling it in" for you and even more optimistic to think they will pin point you correctly. Its possibly fine if people know they are alone (but less chance of being seen) OR if its sufficiently crowded that people can all be seen looking at something to see if they really saw a flare... ...but if they assume there are others around who have more responsibility to act (lifeguards on a beach, other boats etc) they may do nothing.

In this case they called in something that isn't a distress signal.

rather than everyone within sight being oblivious to ones peril as would be the case setting off an Epirb.

Only oblivious UNTIL CG does a Mayday Relay.

I think it is a shame that flares have such a bad reputation. I've tried a few and some just wouldn;t ignite.

So:
- Unreliable to work
- Risk of injury in use
- Unreliable at being seen / acted on when seen
- Unidirectional system same as EPIRB (you don't know its been understood)
- No means to specify your type of distress
- Short Shelf life
- Expensive to get delivered
- Pain to destroy

Whats it got going for it..?

but I have only ever had cause to use a red hand held flare. The o/b bracket punched through the transom when crossing the harbour bar (a minor one) and there was a fishing boat alongside. I managed to hobble back in without sinking, but was greatly comforted by the presence of the fisherman alongside. The lead times of an EPIRB would have rendered them useless in this situation.

Were you in DISTRESS?
Did you have VHF?

Another day, this time lovely and sunny, I happily sailed past a local mobo anchored just outside of the harbour. Meanwhile they were on the radio to the coastguard trying to arrange a lifeboat tow in! An orange smoke, a red hand-held or even a wave! could have solved their problem in moments. (I had a motor, but no fixed radio fitted at that time.)

BUT they were not in distress. They weren't even in urgency. Using a flare in this situation would have been WRONG. If you don't believe the bystander effect how many 999 calls and other vessels would get involved. If not already on VHF to CG, CG then doesn't know what the distress is so would send lots of assets.
In this situation VHF - MOBILE - WAVE/WHISTLE - LIGHT. Doubt I'd ever be activating the PLB or a Flare.
I'd always assume the response you get to either a PLB or Flare is a helicopter. If you wouldn't accept assistance by helicopter PLB or flare probably isn't appropriate.

An EPIRB is going to have no effect whatsoever on the steamer about to run you down in the night; Neither is a white flare, but at least you can tell St.Peter that you tried...

Which might get you rescued? The PLB in your pocket? The Float free EPIRB or the Flares in the box that you didn't have time to grab... If they didn't see your boat would they see your flare?

 

[ShinyShoe]

Flares have an independence from other systems on the boat that is worth considering in my opinion. However, I agree that VHF DSC, PLB and EPIRB are more reliable methods of communicating an emergency these days.

My PLB, Handheld VHF and EPIRB are all independent of other systems on the boat...?

 

[Iliade]

For some reason the nesting quotes failed to think about working. Maybe they are illustrating the reliability of advanced technology in a situation where immediate action is required :0)

>Were you in DISTRESS?

Yes, there was a large hole in the hull which was taking water and I had a 9.8hp outboard hanging off a flap of fibreglass in significant waves. It just so happened that I was able to make my way to a position of safety.

>Did you have VHF? Not a fixed unit, and I didn't have time to go waste using it if I had. The flares were within reach, as was the fishing boat. (My nearly new IP66 Silva radio had expired due to sea water ingress!)


BUT they were not in distress. They weren't even in urgency. Using a flare in this situation would have been WRONG. If you don't believe the bystander effect how many 999 calls and other vessels would get involved. If not already on VHF to CG, CG then doesn't know what the distress is so would send lots of assets.
In this situation VHF - MOBILE - WAVE/WHISTLE - LIGHT. Doubt I'd ever be activating the PLB or a Flare.
I'd always assume the response you get to either a PLB or Flare is a helicopter. If you wouldn't accept assistance by helicopter PLB or flare probably isn't appropriate.

It transpired that they had made a MAYDAY call, therefore they were in distress. That's how I heard that they were not just anchored and enjoying a sundowner. Maybe they were taking water instead of tonic?

Which might get you rescued? The PLB in your pocket? The Float free EPIRB or the Flares in the box that you didn't have time to grab... If they didn't see your boat would they see your flare?

My point was that white flares are the only emergency means of alerting other vessels to your presence. They are your last chance, after the OOW has failed to spot you in the radar and filtered you out of the AIS and failed to hear you begging on the radio. I carry, IIRC, five EPIRBs (PLBs) onboard, not to mention a satellite tracker, two VHF radios, an airband radio and a two metre (and 6cm, 466 etc etc) radio; I am hardly a luddite, but I do believe that the old fashioned flares and smokes still have a place onboard.

 

[ShinyShoe]

Change course. Simples.
You aren't restricted in ability to manouvre. If you've waited until a point where you can't avoid a collision by taking avoiding action yourself you have breached the IRPCS yourself. If you a planning to light up the night sky with a white flare and expect the other vessel to see that and correctly taking avoiding action by that point you still could have taken your own avoiding action and by the sounds of things you have already been hailing him on VHF so how far away do you start panicking? Why not just take your own avoiding action...?

 

[Iliade]

Personally, I sailed a quarter tonner for several years with an unreliable engine or simply no engine, just a sweep. I never had to light up a white one, but I could definitely foresee looming (sic:0) circumstances in which that would have been appropriate. And no I would not have been close to falling foul or the IRPCS, just too small and becalmed in the shipping lanes.

 

[GrahamM376]

Why is a PLB best if SH?

If you fall off the boat, the VHF, flares and EPIRB aren't much use.

 

[KellysEye]

Both. An Epirb can take an hour to get a fix and send your position, flares immeiately attract all the types of vessels in the area.

>We just had a practice session with flares organised by Lagos marina. In my case, 2 of nine flares failed and the total for the group was 9 failed flares. It was mostly the fuses that failed.
One thing was clear to me, lighting a flare needs two hands, so I would not have one left for me or the boat. Then you have to stand there for about 60 seconds (red hand held) with a dangerously hot device getting warmer in your hand as it burns, so gloves are a good idea.
The rockets are even more frightening as they need careful aiming, fairly easy on the shore but on a boat in a storm.... They need two hands to launch too.
Finally, in these days of terrorism, it's surprising that we are allowed to buy as much pyrotechic as we can afford. Rocket flares can be lethal. (The NRA would probably approve).
Personally the sooner the requirement to carry them is removed the better.

Having done the same in Lagos it is not a practice it is is an event when all the flares fired are out of date, which you forgot to mention, so you would expect flares to fail. When Jane an I did it one parachute flare exploded in a cruiser's hand so always wear thick gloves when firing flares.

From a legal point of view a skipper has a duty of care to the crew, if one or more of them die and the enquiry find that flares would have led to a rescue with no fatalities the skipper would be prosecuted. That happened in a different way to the skipper of a yacht entering the Needlles in a gale against tide, one crew member went overboard and was killed because wasn't clipped on with a harness and tether, the enquiry found he was guilty of lack of duty of care and was prosecuted.

My view is always carry flares for the reasons above, they are not something to be removed.

 

[sailorman]

Both. An Epirb can take an hour to get a fix and send your position, flares immeiately attract all the types of vessels in the area.

>We just had a practice session with flares organised by Lagos marina. In my case, 2 of nine flares failed and the total for the group was 9 failed flares. It was mostly the fuses that failed.
One thing was clear to me, lighting a flare needs two hands, so I would not have one left for me or the boat. Then you have to stand there for about 60 seconds (red hand held) with a dangerously hot device getting warmer in your hand as it burns, so gloves are a good idea.
The rockets are even more frightening as they need careful aiming, fairly easy on the shore but on a boat in a storm.... They need two hands to launch too.
Finally, in these days of terrorism, it's surprising that we are allowed to buy as much pyrotechic as we can afford. Rocket flares can be lethal. (The NRA would probably approve).
Personally the sooner the requirement to carry them is removed the better.

Having done the same in Lagos it is not a practice it is is an event when all the flares fired are out of date, which you forgot to mention, so you would expect flares to fail. When Jane an I did it one parachute flare exploded in a cruiser's hand so always wear thick gloves when firing flares.

From a legal point of view a skipper has a duty of care to the crew, if one or more of them die and the enquiry find that flares would have led to a rescue with no fatalities the skipper would be prosecuted. That happened in a different way to the skipper of a yacht entering the Needlles in a gale against tide, one crew member went overboard and was killed because wasn't clipped on with a harness and tether, the enquiry found he was guilty of lack of duty of care and was prosecuted.

My view is always carry flares for the reasons above, they are not something to be removed.

Had this chap paid for the trip or was he family / friend on a day out. i assume he was a paying hence the findings

 

[VicS]

Both. An Epirb can take an hour to get a fix and send your position, flares immeiately attract all the types of vessels in the area.

>We just had a practice session with flares organised by Lagos marina. In my case, 2 of nine flares failed and the total for the group was 9 failed flares. It was mostly the fuses that failed.
One thing was clear to me, lighting a flare needs two hands, so I would not have one left for me or the boat. Then you have to stand there for about 60 seconds (red hand held) with a dangerously hot device getting warmer in your hand as it burns, so gloves are a good idea.
The rockets are even more frightening as they need careful aiming, fairly easy on the shore but on a boat in a storm.... They need two hands to launch too.
Finally, in these days of terrorism, it's surprising that we are allowed to buy as much pyrotechic as we can afford. Rocket flares can be lethal. (The NRA would probably approve).
Personally the sooner the requirement to carry them is removed the better.

Having done the same in Lagos it is not a practice it is is an event when all the flares fired are out of date, which you forgot to mention, so you would expect flares to fail. When Jane an I did it one parachute flare exploded in a cruiser's hand so always wear thick gloves when firing flares.

From a legal point of view a skipper has a duty of care to the crew, if one or more of them die and the enquiry find that flares would have led to a rescue with no fatalities the skipper would be prosecuted. That happened in a different way to the skipper of a yacht entering the Needlles in a gale against tide, one crew member went overboard and was killed because wasn't clipped on with a harness and tether, the enquiry found he was guilty of lack of duty of care and was prosecuted.

My view is always carry flares for the reasons above, they are not something to be removed.

You seem to be contradicting yourself !

 

[KellysEye]

>Had this chap paid for the trip or was he family / friend on a day out. i assume he was a paying hence the findings

No it is not only commercial skippers who have a legal duty of care to their crew, whether the crew is paying or not, all sailing skippers do have that legal duty to all crew for obvious reasons.

>You seem to be contradicting yourself !

How?

 

[VicS]

>You seem to be contradicting yourself !

How?

The statements, "Personally the sooner the requirement to carry them is removed the better" and, "My view is always carry flares for the reasons above, they are not something to be removed" seem to say the opposite of each other.

 

[RAI]

The statements, "Personally the sooner the requirement to carry them is removed the better" and, "My view is always carry flares for the reasons above, they are not something to be removed" seem to say the opposite of each other.

The first is a quote from my message, the second is his. I assume.