single
Well-Known Member
I know my answer but what do others think. Say you had to choose between only having a 406 EPIRB OR a set of flares, what would you choose? (UK waters)
EPIRB or flares?
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ShinyShoe
Well-Known Member
No question. EPIRB every time.
I think flares are pretty much redundent these days except for pin pointing which boat you are when there are many possibilities.
I think flares are pretty much redundent these days except for pin pointing which boat you are when there are many possibilities.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
They are not direct substitutes for eachother as those that potentially see a signal from one may not necessarily be able to see another.
Having said that sentiment is moving away from flares partly because the use of other means of attracting attention such as EPIRBs, PLBs and DSC radios has reduced the number of incidents where a visual means might be useful and partly because the potential danger attached to carrying and using flares. Recently the MCA has reduced the flare requirement for pleasure boats that have to carry them and it is probably only a matter of time before they cease to be a requirement.
In making your choice you need to understand the characteristics of each device and then assess the likelihood of first you needing them, then how effective they are in a given situation.
So, for coastal waters my order of priorities would be DSC, PLB, EPIRB and no flares. Moving outside range of shore based VHF it would be EPIRB, PLB, DSC and flares in liferaft.
Having said that sentiment is moving away from flares partly because the use of other means of attracting attention such as EPIRBs, PLBs and DSC radios has reduced the number of incidents where a visual means might be useful and partly because the potential danger attached to carrying and using flares. Recently the MCA has reduced the flare requirement for pleasure boats that have to carry them and it is probably only a matter of time before they cease to be a requirement.
In making your choice you need to understand the characteristics of each device and then assess the likelihood of first you needing them, then how effective they are in a given situation.
So, for coastal waters my order of priorities would be DSC, PLB, EPIRB and no flares. Moving outside range of shore based VHF it would be EPIRB, PLB, DSC and flares in liferaft.
duncan99210
Well-Known Member
Having been in a situation where flares were needed to signal distress I would never be without parachute and hand held red flares. Otherwise, I'm of much the same mind as Tranona: PLB/EPIRB and DSC radio. If money were no object, then I'd add a laser/led beacon into the mix as well. However, to my mind it is not an either/or question, more an I want everything possible to signal distress.
DannyB
Well-Known Member
I spoke to a member of the RNLI who was doing a free safety check in the marina, I was thinking of buying a PLB and wanted to sound him out on the subject. What he told me was that if a PLB is actuated, the first thing that happens is that the rescue centre phone the contact number on the PLB registration document, and ask if the contact person knows where the PLB owner is. Once they get confirmation that the owner of the PLB is at sea then the alarm is raised. Now, assuming the PLB takes ten minutes to get a fix and broadcast an alarm, that the rescue centre spend another ten, fifteen minutes checking on the whereabouts of the casualty, it could be up to half an hour before anything actually starts to happen, rescue wise. Whereas a flare is pretty much instantaneous, provided somebody sees it. I bought the PLB anyway, not because I think it will bring rescue, but purely because it will make it easier to find my body, and reduce the period of anxiety for my family. I carry flares on the boat and a set of mini flares on my lifejacket.
RAI
Well-Known Member
We just had a practice session with flares organised by Lagos marina. In my case, 2 of nine flares failed and the total for the group was 9 failed flares. It was mostly the fuses that failed.
One thing was clear to me, lighting a flare needs two hands, so I would not have one left for me or the boat. Then you have to stand there for about 60 seconds (red hand held) with a dangerously hot device getting warmer in your hand as it burns, so gloves are a good idea.
The rockets are even more frightening as they need careful aiming, fairly easy on the shore but on a boat in a storm.... They need two hands to launch too.
Finally, in these days of terrorism, it's surprising that we are allowed to buy as much pyrotechic as we can afford. Rocket flares can be lethal. (The NRA would probably approve).
Personally the sooner the requirement to carry them is removed the better.
One thing was clear to me, lighting a flare needs two hands, so I would not have one left for me or the boat. Then you have to stand there for about 60 seconds (red hand held) with a dangerously hot device getting warmer in your hand as it burns, so gloves are a good idea.
The rockets are even more frightening as they need careful aiming, fairly easy on the shore but on a boat in a storm.... They need two hands to launch too.
Finally, in these days of terrorism, it's surprising that we are allowed to buy as much pyrotechic as we can afford. Rocket flares can be lethal. (The NRA would probably approve).
Personally the sooner the requirement to carry them is removed the better.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
trapezeartist
Well-Known Member
I agree that the two things are not direct alternatives, but they are both a method of asking for help in an emergency. And funds may restrict someone to just one of them.
I really dislike flares because of the potential hazards. If they were a new invention today, they would never be allowed. However, they unfortunately do have certain advantages in certain circumstances. It's a very difficult conundrum.
The argument against an EPIRB or PLB (the delay before the it's recognised as a genuine distress) varies in relevance depending on the situation. If you carry a PLB in case of going MOB, the delay could be critical. If you have an EPIRB on your boat for going offshore, the delay is negligible.
I really dislike flares because of the potential hazards. If they were a new invention today, they would never be allowed. However, they unfortunately do have certain advantages in certain circumstances. It's a very difficult conundrum.
The argument against an EPIRB or PLB (the delay before the it's recognised as a genuine distress) varies in relevance depending on the situation. If you carry a PLB in case of going MOB, the delay could be critical. If you have an EPIRB on your boat for going offshore, the delay is negligible.
sailorman
Well-Known Member
I was told ( HMCA Falmouth ) that even if the PLB was unregisterd the HMCA would respond. who would they phone in that case.
i think your RNLI man wasnt up to speed
lw395
Well-Known Member
Flares.
They're required for some racing we do.
If you don't want to sail without an EPIRb, I won't criticise yo for that, just tell you to find the cash somehow.
They're required for some racing we do.
If you don't want to sail without an EPIRb, I won't criticise yo for that, just tell you to find the cash somehow.
lw395
Well-Known Member
Flares.
They're required for some racing we do.
If you don't want to sail without an EPIRb, I won't criticise yo for that, just tell you to find the cash somehow.
They're required for some racing we do.
If you don't want to sail without an EPIRb, I won't criticise yo for that, just tell you to find the cash somehow.
single
Well-Known Member
I think I'll spend money on a decent epirb and hope the out of date (2014)flares work as a backup. Failing that the life raft always has in date flares.
LadyInBed
Well-Known Member
I am firmly on the side of electronic devices so have PLB, a strobe and laser.
Fireworks had their day, but do still have a place in the scheme of things, so I have a pack of mini flares and glow sticks.
Fireworks had their day, but do still have a place in the scheme of things, so I have a pack of mini flares and glow sticks.
TQA
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Depending where you sail a mobile phone with a reliable shore contact may be the best way to raise the authorities and get some help.
But EPIRB over flares every time for me.
But EPIRB over flares every time for me.
single
Well-Known Member
Next question it which EPIRB /GPS PLB?
This maybe? http://www.force4.co.uk/acr-resqlink-buoyant-gps-plb-with-free-safety-pack.html?sqr=gps%20plb&
This maybe? http://www.force4.co.uk/acr-resqlink-buoyant-gps-plb-with-free-safety-pack.html?sqr=gps%20plb&
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ShinyShoe
Well-Known Member
Think thats a fairly fundamental requirement. Perhaps all the Solent boys can be confident of always being in visual contact of another vessel or someone on shore looking out at us but how many of the rest of us can. If its another vessel you'd at least be hopeful they know what it is and what to do about it. If its a Member of The Public walking the dog on the beach...? But even then the bystander effect could be a risk. MOP on a busy beach assumes everyone else has seen it and someone has called it in. MOP reports a parachute flare somewhere maybe 2 miles off a beach. CG send rescue vessels to search a big area. Rescue vessels sent quicker than PLB, but less likely to arrive in the right location any quicker?
If there are other vessels around to see the flare why aren't they hearing your Hand Held VHF?
It shouldn't take 10-15 minutes to contact a shore contact. But there are likely more steps:
PLB / EPIRB Activated. (Time 00:00:15)
(Assuming its a GPS version): EPIRB tries for GPS fix (often fails). Waits up to 1 minute. If No fix sends alert with no fix. (00:01:15)
Geostationary Sat picks up distress message and relays to Spain. (00:02:00)
Spain forward message to CG for registration (00:05:00) [for us Falmouth]
Falmouth identify owner details and if known which area to take responsibility (00:10:00)
Falmouth or Local CG contact Shore Contact. (00:15:00) Contact confirms you are at sea and a rough area. Shore contact unavailable proceed to next step.
CG for area attempt to contact vessel by VHF. Probably 3 attempts at 1 minute intervals followed by an All stations anyone seen this boat please contact us. [00:20:00]
No response - if specific Co-ordinates - consider launch Helo to investigate
No response - No co-ordinates - await COPAS Sat passing over to get location within 5km. Can take 90 minutes.
RAI
Well-Known Member
One can always construct a situation for either flares or EPIRB.
For example, out of sight of land or other vessels, flares are useless. In site of land in the early hours, no observers, flares useless. Observers present but not looking in the right direction for the few seconds the flare is burning or does not know what a flare means or what to do about it. Maybe debates with friends the following day. Maybe gets advice to call police, who call coast guard, sometime.
By the way, if insight of land, would not VHF (or GSM) be a good way of calling for help rather than letting off flares.
Meanwhile, crew member using a flare is deploying life raft, flare dropped into life raft, burning a hole in it, life raft sinks.
Meanwhile, EPIRB continues calling for help for 48 hours, giving time for coast guard to phone various people and start a rescue mission.
Flares like flares should be out of fashion by now.
For example, out of sight of land or other vessels, flares are useless. In site of land in the early hours, no observers, flares useless. Observers present but not looking in the right direction for the few seconds the flare is burning or does not know what a flare means or what to do about it. Maybe debates with friends the following day. Maybe gets advice to call police, who call coast guard, sometime.
By the way, if insight of land, would not VHF (or GSM) be a good way of calling for help rather than letting off flares.
Meanwhile, crew member using a flare is deploying life raft, flare dropped into life raft, burning a hole in it, life raft sinks.
Meanwhile, EPIRB continues calling for help for 48 hours, giving time for coast guard to phone various people and start a rescue mission.
Flares like flares should be out of fashion by now.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Definitely for most of us, particularly in the south of the country, VHF/DSC is far and away the most effective way of summoning help and giving a position.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
Bearing in mind the OP said UK coastal, VHF would be my first option as other boats in the vicinity should hear the call, followed by flares, then mobile phone. OTOH, if regular single-hander, then PLB would be best.
Problem with EPIBs & PLBs, other vessels don't hear them. Lifeboat shouts often instigated by flares being seen from shore.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
not sure that is true any longer. Was possible before the almost universal use of VHF and now EPIRB/PLB - and of course close inshore as you say mobiles. The RYA did a lot of research on the effectiveness of flares before lobbying the MCA to have them removed from the requirements for larger pleasure vessels, which has been partially successful as the requirement has been reduced to 4 hand held red and 2 orange smoke and no parachute flares.
