Engine reconditioning

[Tinto]

I have a Mermaid engine which is based on the Ford XLD418 used in the Fiesta and Escort etc back in the day. Its been very reliable and parts are cheap as chips. Swapping engine to another brand makes the whole project more complicated and expensive and I cant see the benefit of it.

So with that in mind, I am looking for recommendations for companies to recondition the engine.

Thank you for your recommendations on who to use. I am based in Largs some somewhere around here would be good, but I don't mind shipping it on a pallet.

 

[Hunterlees]

West of Scotland Engineering in Glasgow is a good place to start.

 

[Tinto]

West of Scotland Engineering in Glasgow is a good place to start.

Thanks, I just tried a place in Kilmarnock but I don,t know their reputation.

 

[Tranona]

What is wrong with the engine that makes you think it needs "reconditioning"? Rarely do the mechanical bits within the engine wear out - your 100 hours a year is only 3000 hours from new, or in Ford Escort terms 60000 miles. Roughly half the life of the engine on average. In my experience it is rarely worth doing as the bits that often need replacing are external to the engine plus the labour costs of removing the engine and replacing are the same or more for refurbishing as for a new engine (roughly £2k). It really only makes sense if you DIY and just subcontract any machining work. I went through this exercise 2 years ago and the estimate, assuming heat exchanger, alternator, starter and fuel injection, seawater pump were reusable and no serious machining and replacement of things like pistons, valves etc was about 35% lower than a complete new engine and gearbox. You still end up with essentially a 30 year old engine.

It is little more work fitting something like a Beta 35 than refurbishing your old engine and in return you get everything new with a long warranty and another 30 years or more life.

 

[Tinto]

What is wrong with the engine that makes you think it needs "reconditioning"? Rarely do the mechanical bits within the engine wear out - your 100 hours a year is only 3000 hours from new, or in Ford Escort terms 60000 miles. Roughly half the life of the engine on average. In my experience it is rarely worth doing as the bits that often need replacing are external to the engine plus the labour costs of removing the engine and replacing are the same or more for refurbishing as for a new engine (roughly £2k). It really only makes sense if you DIY and just subcontract any machining work. I went through this exercise 2 years ago and the estimate, assuming heat exchanger, alternator, starter and fuel injection, seawater pump were reusable and no serious machining and replacement of things like pistons, valves etc was about 35% lower than a complete new engine and gearbox. You still end up with essentially a 30 year old engine.

It is little more work fitting something like a Beta 35 than refurbishing your old engine and in return you get everything new with a long warranty and another 30 years or more life.

Quite a few assumptions there fella.

It’s blowing a bit of blue smoke at 3000rpm. It’s starting to use a little bit of oil. It takes about 10 seconds to start from tick over.

Yes, I have bit of testing to do to Confirm loss of compression but it’s a possibility.

The engine has done about 8000 hours and I sail 6 months of the year. I also want to go further afield so for safety sake, I want it tip top

I can remove and re fit the the engine myself. I am even thinking about re building it myself and taking the block off to an engineering shop to be re bored - if that’s appropriate.

The only bit I would need help with is the alignment.

That said, I want to find out the cost for someone else to do the rebuild as I need a benchmark.

 

[burgundyben]

Try this guy https://www.timikengines.com/engines/marine-engines/

 

[Refueler]

I would assume that if you can remove and refit engine - then it has good access ? Not just shoehorned into a too small slot as most are.

If so - why not just get a local diesel guy to service in place ? Its a Ford engine ... with a few marine bits added ... as you already know.

Even if he has to remove block to rebore ... its possible

 

[Tranona]

Quite a few assumptions there fella.

It’s blowing a bit of blue smoke at 3000rpm. It’s starting to use a little bit of oil. It takes about 10 seconds to start from tick over.

Yes, I have bit of testing to do to Confirm loss of compression but it’s a possibility.

The engine has done about 8000 hours and I sail 6 months of the year. I also want to go further afield so for safety sake, I want it tip top

I can remove and re fit the the engine myself. I am even thinking about re building it myself and taking the block off to an engineering shop to be re bored - if that’s appropriate.

The only bit I would need help with is the alignment.

That said, I want to find out the cost for someone else to do the rebuild as I need a benchmark.

I stated the assumptions - one can only do that if no other information is available (the 100 hours a year is from your other thread). Yes, at 8000 hours there is likely to be bore wear and valve guides at least.

However it is rarely the basic engine that is the source of unreliability, but the bits that are needed to turn it into a marine engine - seawater pump, heat exchanger, exhaust system, electrics, fuel system, gearbox, controls etc which will still be mostly 30 years old and done 8000 hours. The thing with refurbishment is knowing when to stop. Do you want it as good as new? or just prolong its life for a few years and deal with the things that will inevitably fail as you go along. Or do you want another 30 years of good reliable service.?

For your benchmark the figures I quoted are realistic. Lifting out and reinstall £2k, Strip down, check, re-assemble £2.5k. Parts and any machining extra This is what I was quoted by well established marine engine firm for a 35hp 3 cylinder Perkins. Clearly DIY saves a fair chunk of that. You are fortunate that the Ford internal bits are cheap compared with the Japanese industrial units. An educated guess for a DIY with no major components replaced, but new pistons, bearings, valves and tested fuel pumps and injectors would be around £3,5K. However you will not achieve "tip top" for that, just the minimum to keep it going and not smoking.

There is a good market for running marine engines even old and worn like yours. In the 3 replacement jobs I have done I have sold the old engines while still running in the boat. The first one (30 years ago!) I got £350 for a Stuart Turner petrol 8hp, replaced by a Yanmar 1GM which I later replaced with a Nanni 14 and sold the Yanmar for £1200. They were DIY installations. My latest was replacing the Perkins with a new Beta 30 and I sold the Perkins for £1500 which went a long way toward the labour cost of the professional installation of the new engine.

 

[mrming]

My boat came with a Beta 28 which had been fitted in the early 2000s. It had only done 1000 ish hours but there was a fair bit of deferred maintenance and the visual condition was poor. We had already replaced the exhaust riser, and I was pondering what to do with the rest of it when the original 1987 mild steel diesel tank sprung a leak.

Getting the fuel tank out meant taking the engine out so I decided to go for a refurb and aim to do it at around 50% of the cost of replacement. I found a friendly local engineer through Beta Marine’s agents list.

In line with Tranona’s comments above, we decided that the base engine was not exhibiting any concerning behaviour and was best left alone. Instead the engine was treated to new:
- mounts
- header tank
- fresh water pump
- salt water pump
- thermostats
- hoses and jubilee clips
- filters, impeller, belts etc
- final drive plate

The engine was also stripped and re-painted.

Meanwhile I designed a new fuel tank in CAD and had it made by TekTanks.

The whole lot was then put back in the boat, total cost £6k, including parts, labour, lift in and out, craning and the fuel tank. Pic attached of the engine just before it went in.

I am pretty sure the whole affair would have cost at least double were I to go for a new engine.

 

[rogerthebodger]

I reciently reconditioned my perkins 4 236 diesel engine.

I removed it myself and stipped it down.

I then took the block, crankshaft to an engine reconditioner (not a marine engineering shop) who reground the crank honed the block and refitted the crank ,pistons nes rings and big end and main bearing.

I then built all the ancillaries and refitted the engine back in my boat that is an the hard myself single handed

The perkins is a quite heavy engine and with the aid of a chain block and a scaffolding tower

 

[Tranona]

My boat came with a Beta 28 which had been fitted in the early 2000s. It had only done 1000 ish hours but there was a fair bit of deferred maintenance and the visual condition was poor. We had already replaced the exhaust riser, and I was pondering what to do with the rest of it when the original 1987 mild steel diesel tank sprung a leak.

Getting the fuel tank out meant taking the engine out so I decided to go for a refurb and aim to do it at around 50% of the cost of replacement. I found a friendly local engineer through Beta Marine’s agents list.

In line with Tranona’s comments above, we decided that the base engine was not exhibiting any concerning behaviour and was best left alone. Instead the engine was treated to new:
- mounts
- header tank
- fresh water pump
- salt water pump
- thermostats
- hoses and jubilee clips
- filters, impeller, belts etc
- final drive plate

The engine was also stripped and re-painted.

Meanwhile I designed a new fuel tank in CAD and had it made by TekTanks.

The whole lot was then put back in the boat, total cost £6k, including parts, labour, lift in and out, craning and the fuel tank. Pic attached of the engine just before it went in.

I am pretty sure the whole affair would have cost at least double were I to go for a new engine.

That is interesting - however the OPs concern is with the basic engine with its 8000 hours. I would agree with replacing all the bits you did but if you add the engine stripdown and dealing with the wear you are well on the way to doubling the cost and approaching the cost of a new engine.. Hence my original question as to why does it need attention. The answer to this determines the approach. 8000 hours and 30 years is near end of life for everything whereas your 1000 hours in less than 20 years means it is only the external bits that need dealing with.

 

[Refueler]

That is interesting - however the OPs concern is with the basic engine with its 8000 hours. I would agree with replacing all the bits you did but if you add the engine stripdown and dealing with the wear you are well on the way to doubling the cost and approaching the cost of a new engine.. Hence my original question as to why does it need attention. The answer to this determines the approach. 8000 hours and 30 years is near end of life for everything whereas your 1000 hours in less than 20 years means it is only the external bits that need dealing with.

But I believe that OP has never thrashed the engine as would happen in an Escort or such ?? Didn't he say that he poodles along at average 2000rpm ?

At that level - 30yrs will just about be run in ???

 

[Tinto]

I stated the assumptions - one can only do that if no other information is available (the 100 hours a year is from your other thread). Yes, at 8000 hours there is likely to be bore wear and valve guides at least.

However it is rarely the basic engine that is the source of unreliability, but the bits that are needed to turn it into a marine engine - seawater pump, heat exchanger, exhaust system, electrics, fuel system, gearbox, controls etc which will still be mostly 30 years old and done 8000 hours. The thing with refurbishment is knowing when to stop. Do you want it as good as new? or just prolong its life for a few years and deal with the things that will inevitably fail as you go along. Or do you want another 30 years of good reliable service.?

For your benchmark the figures I quoted are realistic. Lifting out and reinstall £2k, Strip down, check, re-assemble £2.5k. Parts and any machining extra This is what I was quoted by well established marine engine firm for a 35hp 3 cylinder Perkins. Clearly DIY saves a fair chunk of that. You are fortunate that the Ford internal bits are cheap compared with the Japanese industrial units. An educated guess for a DIY with no major components replaced, but new pistons, bearings, valves and tested fuel pumps and injectors would be around £3,5K. However you will not achieve "tip top" for that, just the minimum to keep it going and not smoking.

There is a good market for running marine engines even old and worn like yours. In the 3 replacement jobs I have done I have sold the old engines while still running in the boat. The first one (30 years ago!) I got £350 for a Stuart Turner petrol 8hp, replaced by a Yanmar 1GM which I later replaced with a Nanni 14 and sold the Yanmar for £1200. They were DIY installations. My latest was replacing the Perkins with a new Beta 30 and I sold the Perkins for £1500 which went a long way toward the labour cost of the professional installation of the new engine.

To be fair, my question was not should I recondition it or not. I was asking for recommendations on engineering firms who could do the job. So no other information was required

 

[Tinto]

I reciently reconditioned my perkins 4 236 diesel engine.

I removed it myself and stipped it down.

I then took the block, crankshaft to an engine reconditioner (not a marine engineering shop) who reground the crank honed the block and refitted the crank ,pistons nes rings and big end and main bearing.

I then built all the ancillaries and refitted the engine back in my boat that is an the hard myself single handed

The perkins is a quite heavy engine and with the aid of a chain block and a scaffolding tower

That’s the kind of thing I am looking to doing

 

[Tinto]

But I believe that OP has never thrashed the engine as would happen in an Escort or such ?? Didn't he say that he poodles along at average 2000rpm ?

At that level - 30yrs will just about be run in ???

Engine is 30 years old. I have owned it 2 years. I have no idea how it’s been used prior to me. I do suspect low compression. I will get a a gauge on it soon. In the meantime I am doing my homework

 

[Tinto]

I stated the assumptions - one can only do that if no other information is available (the 100 hours a year is from your other thread). Yes, at 8000 hours there is likely to be bore wear and valve guides at least.

However it is rarely the basic engine that is the source of unreliability, but the bits that are needed to turn it into a marine engine - seawater pump, heat exchanger, exhaust system, electrics, fuel system, gearbox, controls etc which will still be mostly 30 years old and done 8000 hours. The thing with refurbishment is knowing when to stop. Do you want it as good as new? or just prolong its life for a few years and deal with the things that will inevitably fail as you go along. Or do you want another 30 years of good reliable service.?

For your benchmark the figures I quoted are realistic. Lifting out and reinstall £2k, Strip down, check, re-assemble £2.5k. Parts and any machining extra This is what I was quoted by well established marine engine firm for a 35hp 3 cylinder Perkins. Clearly DIY saves a fair chunk of that. You are fortunate that the Ford internal bits are cheap compared with the Japanese industrial units. An educated guess for a DIY with no major components replaced, but new pistons, bearings, valves and tested fuel pumps and injectors would be around £3,5K. However you will not achieve "tip top" for that, just the minimum to keep it going and not smoking.

There is a good market for running marine engines even old and worn like yours. In the 3 replacement jobs I have done I have sold the old engines while still running in the boat. The first one (30 years ago!) I got £350 for a Stuart Turner petrol 8hp, replaced by a Yanmar 1GM which I later replaced with a Nanni 14 and sold the Yanmar for £1200. They were DIY installations. My latest was replacing the Perkins with a new Beta 30 and I sold the Perkins for £1500 which went a long way toward the labour cost of the professional installation of the new engine.

Where do you live? I had keel off and rebedded for £1900

 

[rogerthebodger]

Have a look at some of these firms local to you

engine reconditioning company largs scotland - Google Suche

 

[Tinto]

My boat came with a Beta 28 which had been fitted in the early 2000s. It had only done 1000 ish hours but there was a fair bit of deferred maintenance and the visual condition was poor. We had already replaced the exhaust riser, and I was pondering what to do with the rest of it when the original 1987 mild steel diesel tank sprung a leak.

Getting the fuel tank out meant taking the engine out so I decided to go for a refurb and aim to do it at around 50% of the cost of replacement. I found a friendly local engineer through Beta Marine’s agents list.

In line with Tranona’s comments above, we decided that the base engine was not exhibiting any concerning behaviour and was best left alone. Instead the engine was treated to new:
- mounts
- header tank
- fresh water pump
- salt water pump
- thermostats
- hoses and jubilee clips
- filters, impeller, belts etc
- final drive plate

The engine was also stripped and re-painted.

Meanwhile I designed a new fuel tank in CAD and had it made by TekTanks.

The whole lot was then put back in the boat, total cost £6k, including parts, labour, lift in and out, craning and the fuel tank. Pic attached of the engine just before it went in.

I am pretty sure the whole affair would have cost at least double were I to go for a new engine.

It could be it just needs a de coke and the fuel supply system reconditioning.

In the meantime, doing my homework

 

[Supertramp]

I'd start with a thorough service and check of all ancillaries and then see what problems are left. And keep a log of oil consumption - engines vary in how much they consume. You could spend a lot of money fixing problems that don't exist, only to find your electrics or something else are more of an issue.

As with others on this thread I would go with new if its only a few thousand more to buy real peace of mind.

 

[Tinto]

I'd start with a thorough service and check of all ancillaries and then see what problems are left. And keep a log of oil consumption - engines vary in how much they consume. You could spend a lot of money fixing problems that don't exist, only to find your electrics or something else are more of an issue.

As with others on this thread I would go with new if its only a few thousand more to buy real peace of mind.

Did all that logging last year.

Ford don’t make that engine anymore and the BETA conversion that I have seen is not acceptable to me.

There are more benefits to not changing the engine type than to changing the engine type

That’s why I decided to stick with recons it’s not all about money. Changing engine type makes it much more expensive