Endurance 35?
- Thread starter Tim Good
- Start date
Tranona
Well-known member
If you asked 10 people you are likely to get 10 different answers - bit like asking economists for predictions about the future of the economy.
You only have to look around what other people use to see that although there are trends there are also huge variations.
Personally I would be very happy with a shallow draft hard chine Golden Hind 31 for the simple reasons that first I have owned a similar, but smaller boat from the same designer for 30+ years and secondly before RTW type sailing became popular and accessible more boats of that design had circumnavigated than any other. However, compared with many other possibilities available now it is cramped and slow.
For what it is worth, based on your questions here and the type of sailing you envisage, the type of boat you are looking at (40' odd pilot house) is as good as any. Remember few boats are specifically built for that type of use, so you have to look at what features you think are important and judge a potential boat against them. Success in that type of voyaging is perhaps more to do with how you prepare the boat and your own capability rather than the boat itself. There is a lot of truth in the old saw that few people ever exceed the capability of their boat.
Problem with this type of boat is that they are not mass produced so they tend to be scarce on the secondhand market and older ones that are affordable are very variable in quality and condition, so you will probably have to look at lots before the "right" one comes up - and you probably won't know why it is "right" until you find it.
Not sure whether that helps, but perhaps if you are not clear in your own mind what you want then perhaps you should not be thinking of doing it without getting some direct experience to help you form your own views.
robmcg
Well-known member
People on forums tend to argue for days over what type of boat is best for this or that. I think the above answer makes the most sense. Good post!
Rob
KellysEye
Active member
>They can trip over their keels so you have be a bit careful in a seaway.
From six and a half years of experience of long distance sailing with a long keel with cut away forefoot the Endurance won't turn up into wind in a gust, it won't broach and it won't surf. Any boat can pitchpole if the skipper is stupid enough to sail downwind in a wave height the same as the boat length. Another one for the stupid to avoid is a roll caused by beam reaching in a sea the same height as the beam of the boat.
From six and a half years of experience of long distance sailing with a long keel with cut away forefoot the Endurance won't turn up into wind in a gust, it won't broach and it won't surf. Any boat can pitchpole if the skipper is stupid enough to sail downwind in a wave height the same as the boat length. Another one for the stupid to avoid is a roll caused by beam reaching in a sea the same height as the beam of the boat.
dom
Well-known member
One more: it is also "stupid" to try and bash directly into waves approximately equal to the height of the boat!
Therefore, if it is stupid to beam reach in waves greater than the beam of the boat and stupid to beat, or run before the waves when they're higher than the length of the boat, then by inference it must be stupid to risk getting caught in a storm by sailing small boats offshore at all. That consequently "proves" that Sir Francis Chichester must have been stupid!
Therefore, if it is stupid to beam reach in waves greater than the beam of the boat and stupid to beat, or run before the waves when they're higher than the length of the boat, then by inference it must be stupid to risk getting caught in a storm by sailing small boats offshore at all. That consequently "proves" that Sir Francis Chichester must have been stupid!
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john_morris_uk
Well-known member
I sailed a 40' version rigged as a schooner for a few years. She was more motor-sailor than cruising yacht and not that fast by modern standards. She was very sea-worthy though and reasonably predictable under power. (Occasionally she had a hissy fit and would walk her prop the opposite way to normal which could prove embarrassing
The long keel thing is a bit of a myth. You can get directionally stable boats with 'long fins' and the vast majority of boats that sail the world’s oceans are now fin keeled. Any boat will be overwhelmed in severe enough conditions. The Endurances have longish fins if I recall correctly?
The long keel thing is a bit of a myth. You can get directionally stable boats with 'long fins' and the vast majority of boats that sail the world’s oceans are now fin keeled. Any boat will be overwhelmed in severe enough conditions. The Endurances have longish fins if I recall correctly?
Tim Good
Well-known member
Marsupial
New member
which is why you need two vital elements in any boat off shore in survival conditions; a skipper who knows what he is doing and a boat with passive design attributes that protect the boat and the skipper - a long keel isn't it. In such conditions in a long keeled boat you are more reliant on the skippers abilities; in conditions he may never have seen before.
Modern designs are far more forgiving, I am still alive; believe me I KNOW!
I still think the endurance design looks good though.
dom
Well-known member
Yes I think that's right. I once sailed a long keeler downhill in a F9 in the Western Approaches; there were moderate sized longish waves, the kind which a modern offshore racing hull would have happily whizzed through. I found it unpredictable and difficult to keep straight. Then again people have sailed these these yachts through this sort of thing for years, so it may have been me.
So here's my question: is the first time in a storm, without someone who knows what to do on that exact boat, not inherently dangerous? All storms are different; a friend of mine set a storm anchor in an Atlantic F11 and experienced no trouble. Tried the same trick again in a F9 (to fix a steering problem) in deep water with nonthreatening but shorter waves and the same boat was almost shaken to bits! Switched to a drogue and no problem at all.
KellysEye
Active member
>One more: it is also "stupid" to try and bash directly into waves approximately equal to the height of the boat!
Have you ever been sailing? You can't bash directly into waves of any height you have to sail at an angle to the wind and thus the waves.
>then by inference it must be stupid to risk getting caught in a storm by sailing small boats offshore at all. That consequently "proves" that Sir Francis Chichester must have been stupid!
Obviously you haven't been long distance sailing. You get what ever weather comes along and if possible try to avoid it if you can and have enough notice from a weather forecast. If you call Sir Francis Chichester stupid the you are calling all long distance sailors that. They aren't stupid at all they are experienced and knowledgeable sailors which clearly you are not.
Have you ever been sailing? You can't bash directly into waves of any height you have to sail at an angle to the wind and thus the waves.
>then by inference it must be stupid to risk getting caught in a storm by sailing small boats offshore at all. That consequently "proves" that Sir Francis Chichester must have been stupid!
Obviously you haven't been long distance sailing. You get what ever weather comes along and if possible try to avoid it if you can and have enough notice from a weather forecast. If you call Sir Francis Chichester stupid the you are calling all long distance sailors that. They aren't stupid at all they are experienced and knowledgeable sailors which clearly you are not.
john_morris_uk
Well-known member
The answer to your question lies in the question you pose. If you read accounts of surviving storms the only real certainty is that it all depends. Wave shape and height are factors that depend on things beyond your control and are different in different circumstances. Furthermore you might not have much sea room or you might have a thousand miles or more to leeward. Whilst there are one or two 'knowns' such as what height of breaking sea will nomall overwhelm a boat of a given beam, the best skippers have a range of tricks and techniques to try. Lying a hull, running off under storm jib or bare poles, heaving to, drogues and sea anchors all have their place and the only real answe is that, "It depends."
KellysEye
Active member
>which is why you need two vital elements in any boat off shore in survival conditions; a skipper who knows what he is doing and a boat with passive design attributes that protect the boat and the skipper - a long keel isn't it. In such conditions in a long keeled boat you are more reliant on the skippers abilities; in conditions he may never have seen before.
I agree about modern designs many have gone through gales, we have been in gales twice in chartered Beneteaus once in St Martin and once in the Pelopponese. In St Martin we went up a large wave and there was nothing there just a big hole, the boat's bows dived and the bows buried in the sea which reached just in front of our mast. If the front hatch had been torn off we would have kept going but it didn't, a credit to the boat
However I disagree modern design being more forgiving. Having been in gales (one gusting to 50knots) in our heavy displacement long keeler they have an easier motion and don't heel as much as modern AWBs. Also as I have said before long keelers don't turn up into wind in a gust, they don't broach and they don't surf, all of which AWB's do as we've found out. To put that into context we have sailed 12,000 miles in our long keeler and 3,000 in AWB's.
I agree about modern designs many have gone through gales, we have been in gales twice in chartered Beneteaus once in St Martin and once in the Pelopponese. In St Martin we went up a large wave and there was nothing there just a big hole, the boat's bows dived and the bows buried in the sea which reached just in front of our mast. If the front hatch had been torn off we would have kept going but it didn't, a credit to the boat
However I disagree modern design being more forgiving. Having been in gales (one gusting to 50knots) in our heavy displacement long keeler they have an easier motion and don't heel as much as modern AWBs. Also as I have said before long keelers don't turn up into wind in a gust, they don't broach and they don't surf, all of which AWB's do as we've found out. To put that into context we have sailed 12,000 miles in our long keeler and 3,000 in AWB's.
Tim Good
Well-known member
Curious, are you talking about Kelly's Eye the steel ketch or another you have since bought?
robmcg
Well-known member
I think there is sometimes a blur between talking about long keel v fin keel, the blur being that you need to consider the overall underwater profile rather than just the keel type. From experience, I have found that the 'long keeler' we have now is more sure footed going down a wave than the more modern fin keeler we started off in. I am not convinced that this is purely a function of the keel design and is more likely due to the greater underwater surface area generating friction with the water. I can also say that our long keeler is a much better upwind boat in terms of comfort but loses out slightly in pointing ability. Net result is no boat is perfect in all situations and the reality for most sailers will be that a fin keeled modern yacht will please 99% of people 99% of the time unless you are really heading off piste.
KellysEye
Active member
>Curious, are you talking about Kelly's Eye the steel ketch or another you have since bought?
Yes Kelly's Eye and no we haven't bought another boat we were going away for 2 years and came back six and a half year later. So we a had been there done that feeling about boats/sailing including all the chartering we did, three times a year for over 20 years. At some point, if we begin to miss sailing, we would charter again probably Antigua Barbuda.
Yes Kelly's Eye and no we haven't bought another boat we were going away for 2 years and came back six and a half year later. So we a had been there done that feeling about boats/sailing including all the chartering we did, three times a year for over 20 years. At some point, if we begin to miss sailing, we would charter again probably Antigua Barbuda.
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john_morris_uk
Well-known member
I guess it's all down to ones own experience.
Tim Good
Well-known member
If we take a very rough guide of Morgans Cloud of GRP boats and High Latitudes: http://www.morganscloud.com/2005/12/01/fibreglass-boat-for-high-latitudes/
Does anyone know the answers to the follow in relation to the Endurance:
1. The boat should be constructed strongly enough to withstand a full speed grounding.
2. The boat should be able to stand up to heavy weather at sea without leaking through the decks or hull.
(I think we have gathered our own opinions to this from this discussion)
3. Water tight bulkheads
4. Insulation. An uninsulated fibreglass boat will weep condensation in cold weather wetting everything below
Does anyone know the answers to the follow in relation to the Endurance:
1. The boat should be constructed strongly enough to withstand a full speed grounding.
2. The boat should be able to stand up to heavy weather at sea without leaking through the decks or hull.
(I think we have gathered our own opinions to this from this discussion)
3. Water tight bulkheads
4. Insulation. An uninsulated fibreglass boat will weep condensation in cold weather wetting everything below
Tranona
Well-known member
Difficult to be specific as the design has many builders.
However the general keel design is of the type that is arguably the most robust in a grounding situation (compared with a bolt on fin keel). You would need a surveyor's report on the integrity of the keel on the particular boat you are buying. Similarly the integrity of the hull and superstructure in relation to damage and leaks will depend on the method of construction - for example some have wood decks and superstructure, some have GRP. Ferro boats can have ferro or wood decks, but usually wood superstructure.
It is unlikely that the boat will have watertight bulkheads. Insulation is a difficult one as there are different ways of insulating a GRP boat and again you would have to look at the individual boat to assess the likelihood of suffering from condensation.
However the general keel design is of the type that is arguably the most robust in a grounding situation (compared with a bolt on fin keel). You would need a surveyor's report on the integrity of the keel on the particular boat you are buying. Similarly the integrity of the hull and superstructure in relation to damage and leaks will depend on the method of construction - for example some have wood decks and superstructure, some have GRP. Ferro boats can have ferro or wood decks, but usually wood superstructure.
It is unlikely that the boat will have watertight bulkheads. Insulation is a difficult one as there are different ways of insulating a GRP boat and again you would have to look at the individual boat to assess the likelihood of suffering from condensation.
alant
Active member
Very interesting link, thanks.
PS
This is from YBW Forum 2008 - Barnacle
"I saw one once, back in the early 1970s, that was exactly that - a destruction test. A professionally built Endurance 35 (Peter Ibold design) that was on its maiden delivery voyage to Whitby, went aground on the flat scaur rocks to the east of the entrance due to faulty navigation and poor visibility. It went on with a falling tide and got broken up when a strong onshore wind blew up during the night on the change of tide. I went down to look at the pieces a day later at low tide and found a section of topside where the inner and outer skins flapped open, hinging on the mesh - they had clearly been plastered separately from inside and outside and the cement had not bonded in the middle.
I know that the builder had a Lloyd’s certificate for that yacht and I have been sceptical about that qualification ever since."
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aznarepse
New member
Hi, perhaps a bit late but I wanted to add my experience as there is little information about this boat around.
I own an Endurance 35 built by Belliure with GRP in 1977. I have had her for 15 years now and would not change her for any other boat. I confess that for a while I was looking at the Belliure 50 but now I am very happy I didn't go for it as the size of the 35 is just fine. I have sailed also in other modern boats of all sorts and have raced with cats for many years.
The interior in this boat is normally an old design and there isn't any big open space. Also, the interior basically starts passing the cockpit. On modern boats, the cockpit is that shallow that a cabin can be made underneath; not the case of this boat and there is just empty space for the steering mechanism underneath. I think this conditions a lot the distribution. On modern boats of this size, one normally finds three spaces: the saloon, the cabin ahead, and one cabin astern and the toilet. There isn't stern here; so, if we were to make the same big saloon with a cabin ahead, that would be all. Then, they make the saloon, in my boat a starboard cabin and a bunk in the midship section, the toilet and a cabin ahead. On another hand, is the most protected cockpit I have ever been, as the hole cabin protects the people from the elements, with the handicap of little visibility ahead...
In my boat, the hull is extraordinarily strong. Never went aground but I rammed in one occasion a pontoon that had to be extensively repaired after. The boat only had scratches. It is not a habit I have, it was in a marina with very strong currents and the approach had to be very fast. Unfortunately, the gear cable was parted and when I wanted to stop the boat by changing to astern, what I did was to give more power ahead...
Regarding the sailing: yes, she isn't a fast boat. With nice sails, I normally average 5-6 knots in transits. I have done more than 20,000 nm with her and have been in really nasty weather conditions. We were caught in very heavy weather (75 knots wind and huge, I mean monstrous, waves) for three days in Biscay bay. Only sail used was a very small stay sail to stabilize. Well, the only way we found that was inspiring confidence was to run down the waves with some power in the prop to maintain the rudder flow at all times. We tried heading to the waves and I will not try that again in my life... scary... However, we set her up drifting for some periods heading to the weather and that worked very well too (we needed to lash a guy inside and also at other times we were just exhausted and needed a break). When the waves break on you and you dive into the foam you can loose control on the boat but as soon as it finds itself positive into the water again is fine. Sailing with the weather abeam was also right unless the waves were breaking. We managed to get three breaking waves sideways and yes, the boat will not slide. We put the mast in the water several times but she always came back nicely. But as said above, down wind she was absolutely stable in the course and only problem was when she was submerged in the foam of braking waves; the propeller helps there.
We have been with such winds before but never those massive waves. With the right sails, wind isn't a problem.
All said, I have been at sea professionally in merchant shipping for a while and happened to me a very similar situation in Biscay Bay with a 105 meters 6500 gross tonnes ship. The above applies as well. Only confidence inspiring way is running down the weather or heave up into it. We have lost containers and even liferafts from a 4th deck.
In short, if you are looking for a lot of space and reasonable speed in a 35 feet boat, get a modern design one. If you are looking for a very seaworthy boat with a comfortable sailing behaviour, the Endurance 35, in well built units, is a very good candidate.
I own an Endurance 35 built by Belliure with GRP in 1977. I have had her for 15 years now and would not change her for any other boat. I confess that for a while I was looking at the Belliure 50 but now I am very happy I didn't go for it as the size of the 35 is just fine. I have sailed also in other modern boats of all sorts and have raced with cats for many years.
The interior in this boat is normally an old design and there isn't any big open space. Also, the interior basically starts passing the cockpit. On modern boats, the cockpit is that shallow that a cabin can be made underneath; not the case of this boat and there is just empty space for the steering mechanism underneath. I think this conditions a lot the distribution. On modern boats of this size, one normally finds three spaces: the saloon, the cabin ahead, and one cabin astern and the toilet. There isn't stern here; so, if we were to make the same big saloon with a cabin ahead, that would be all. Then, they make the saloon, in my boat a starboard cabin and a bunk in the midship section, the toilet and a cabin ahead. On another hand, is the most protected cockpit I have ever been, as the hole cabin protects the people from the elements, with the handicap of little visibility ahead...
In my boat, the hull is extraordinarily strong. Never went aground but I rammed in one occasion a pontoon that had to be extensively repaired after. The boat only had scratches. It is not a habit I have, it was in a marina with very strong currents and the approach had to be very fast. Unfortunately, the gear cable was parted and when I wanted to stop the boat by changing to astern, what I did was to give more power ahead...
Regarding the sailing: yes, she isn't a fast boat. With nice sails, I normally average 5-6 knots in transits. I have done more than 20,000 nm with her and have been in really nasty weather conditions. We were caught in very heavy weather (75 knots wind and huge, I mean monstrous, waves) for three days in Biscay bay. Only sail used was a very small stay sail to stabilize. Well, the only way we found that was inspiring confidence was to run down the waves with some power in the prop to maintain the rudder flow at all times. We tried heading to the waves and I will not try that again in my life... scary... However, we set her up drifting for some periods heading to the weather and that worked very well too (we needed to lash a guy inside and also at other times we were just exhausted and needed a break). When the waves break on you and you dive into the foam you can loose control on the boat but as soon as it finds itself positive into the water again is fine. Sailing with the weather abeam was also right unless the waves were breaking. We managed to get three breaking waves sideways and yes, the boat will not slide. We put the mast in the water several times but she always came back nicely. But as said above, down wind she was absolutely stable in the course and only problem was when she was submerged in the foam of braking waves; the propeller helps there.
We have been with such winds before but never those massive waves. With the right sails, wind isn't a problem.
All said, I have been at sea professionally in merchant shipping for a while and happened to me a very similar situation in Biscay Bay with a 105 meters 6500 gross tonnes ship. The above applies as well. Only confidence inspiring way is running down the weather or heave up into it. We have lost containers and even liferafts from a 4th deck.
In short, if you are looking for a lot of space and reasonable speed in a 35 feet boat, get a modern design one. If you are looking for a very seaworthy boat with a comfortable sailing behaviour, the Endurance 35, in well built units, is a very good candidate.
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