Electronic YM

[rhinorhino]

Consider the following;
1. GPS is cheap, reliable (well mostly), accurate and almost universally fitted in cruising yachts.
2. Chart plotters are now common.
3. Radar is now both affordable and common.
4. The RYA now includes the proper use of electronic aids in the shorebased YM course. Badly imo by the way.
Why then do YM examiners differ so much in their policy in relation to the use of electronic aids to navigation, with some forbidding it's use and others who would fail a candidate for not using it.
I would be very interested to know what the forum thinks (esp. any YM instructors/examiners) about the issue.
Should GPS/electronics be used at all in exam conditions?
If so to what extent?
Radar?
Chart-plotters?


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[Rowana]

IMHO both should be tested. I agree with all your points about modern electronic aids to navigation - But I was taught that it is important to rember, thats just what they are - aids. When I did my day skipper's course, one of the most interesting and beneficial days to me, was when the instructor switched off the gps, and we had to navigate by taking bearings, then by DR once we were out of sight of land.

What happens if you are on a passage somewhere and some disaster stikes, lightning for example, and all your electronic gismos get fryed?

Whilst believing that both electronic & traditional navigation should be examined, it would appear that there is no consistency among examiners.

More defination should be given by the RYA to achieve this consistency.

Jim

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[Magic_Sailor]

RR

I reckon that if a "system" is available, it should be tested. Including of course traditional means.

Bit like when I were a lad - when you took your drivinig test if indicators were fitted, you used 'em but had to demonstrate hand signals as well. Eee, those were t' days.



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[Guest]

Post deleted by danfoley

 

[Happy1]

I suppose you could relate it to an airliner, they have auto pilot which is used almost all the time, although I have been on a few flights where they have landed manualy to keep their hand in. As far as electronic navigation goes, it is very reliable nowadays, aircraft use it all the time, I can't imagine what would happen if an airliner got lost! Get the charts out I guess !!

I think it is all to do with the history of sailing, some people will never change and stick to old fashioned navigation methods, don't get me wrong, you need to have a good knowledge of these as a basic form of navigation, should for whatever reason the electronic stuff fail.

With regards to the training, I would think there are instructors who do not have the skills in electronic navigation to teach, so therefore stick to the manual method, others who do understand it, are willing to pass their knowledge on. I do think that there should be an equal understanding of each IMHO, you could have some serious problems with navigating if you were using electronic system and did not know how to use them. I also believe that most people do not get the best out of their electronic navigational equipment because they do not know the full capabilities of it. The RYA need to keep up with the times and train electronic navigation trainers. Some people would be quite happy to only use the manual method but at YM level you should be competent in both.

Just my views,

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[oldsaltoz]

G'day rhinorhino,

Because I'm an old Fart who did his Offshore Yacht Master some (too many) years ago, I tend to take regular fixes with the old hand bearing compass. However, on my way to the charts, I record the GPS / plotter location and compare my fix with the electronics. This establishes two things. 1) Confidence in your own ability to plot your position, and 2) It's a good check to make sure the destination has been entered correctly.

I recall one trip that taking fixes picked up this error, one of the crew had a little finger trouble punching in the co-ordinates we were headed for, had I not checked we may well have sailed into all sorts of trouble, and had a much longer trip than planned.

Now, no amount of testing (by examiners) will eliminate finger trouble on electronics, or the chart table: but combining both the electronic and traditional navigation you can avoid many problems in both areas.

The terminology used in traditional navigation has (for the most part) been carried over to the electronics. Without a good understanding of Traditional / basic navigation I think would be difficult to understand what the electronics are telling you.

Bottom line, if you can't do, or understand the chart work, get out there and start learning, the life you save may be your own. If an YM examiner looks only at your ability to navigate without electronics, he/she is making sure you can get back, or let someone where to find you. You don't have to rely on electronics to provide this information.

Re YM examiners testing / teaching electronics, it's a bit like keeping up with the latest futures on a computer, 20 new models every month all with added features and capabilities. This is why they (Navigation aids) come with a manual and the terminology is the same as traditional navigation. I pity the poor soul who even attempts to keep up with marine electronics.

Soavagoodweekend Old Salt Oz /forums/images/icons/cool.gif



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[rhinorhino]

Your reply together with those of others raises a number of issues.

1. If electronic aids to navigation are now part of the shorebased course, shouldn't they be part of the exam? On the analogy someone used, it is as if the driving test taught the use of indicators and then made everyone still use hand signals on their test.

I can't agree that electronics can't be tested because they are always changing, what is being examined is the result not the process. I.e. Whether, for example, you find the buoy you are looking for not which buttons you press.

2 The standards expected by examiners vary hugely. This is I suspect partly due to the self-employed nature of the examiners and in part due to dumbing down of the exam. I have first hand knowledge of a candidate who could not, even after an hours effort, pick up a buoy under sail, who, because he had a job arranged with a holiday company as a flotilla skipper, was allowed to go away have a couple of hours lessons and try again the next day!

I feel the RYA should be tightening up on the examiners.

3. Failure to use all available electronic aids is not only bad seamanship, it may well also, so far as Radar is concerned, at least, be a breach of the IRPCS, which requires radar to be used if fitted in conditions of poor visibility.

The proper use of electronics enables the average YM to do things that would be impossible with out them and vastly increases safety margins. To take an example , using Totaltide I can do a secondary port calculation in less than 5 seconds and it will be accurate. Why take five minutes to do the same task and be unavailable to skipper the yacht for that long?

I also suspect sailing schools are against electronics because of the cost both of the equipment and of training. I would support a rule that all boats used for YM instruction should be properly equipped with up to date nav aids.

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[bedouin]

The YM candidate must clearly make use of all available aids to navigation, that includes radar, GPS and Chartplotters when fitted. In practice of course in the YM exam, chartplotters and Radar are likely to be of little practical use.

However once the candidate has shown that he knows how to use them, they should be subject to a mysterious failure, to force the candidate to use traditional methods (much like the way the engine always fails to start in the MoB situation).

In fact, perhaps the examiners should take to carrying a little device that interferes with the GPS just to see if the candidate notices.

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