Electric vehicles and towing

Bouba said:
That could be a big job, there are over 7000 cells in a Tesla, and aren’t car manufacturers distributing cells in all the nooks and crannies nowadays to reduce the battery profile and improve weight distribution
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Tesla have their own unique way of building battery banks, Loads of small cylindrical cells glued to a cooling array. Then boxed up into a small module, The battery bank is then assembled from an array of modules. So in a Tesla I don't think it is possible to remove a specific cell. The Tesla logic is that by having 1000's of cells if one or two fail you won't notice. Plus I think that's how they can charge faster than other makes - they can cool quicker. At the moment individual cells are not distributed throughout the cars structure. With present technology that would be a nightmare trying to cool/heat them all. Plus in a crash - nasty battery stuff could end up all over the place. Elon says lots of things sometimes it's just nonsense to get attention.

However in pretty much every other make the individual cells are physically bigger and "prismatic" - box shaped. And the battery bank is designed to be easy to recycle or repair. There are @ 100 or 200 individual cells which can then be individually monitored more closely by the battery management system. Then if a cell starts to fail the car knows exactly which one it is.

Apple have signed up to build EVs with Hyundai - If I still owned Tesla shares I would be selling them soon. Technology wise Tesla will soon be surpassed and charge speeds/battery life will switch to 800/900 V systems used very effectively first by Porsche, and now by Hyundai - less current, less heat.
 
ontheplane said:
Here's a 7 year old Tesla that's done 143,000 miles - whilst it doesn't specifically say the battery is OK, it's saying the range is 313 miles which is more or less the same as the original.

I would be staggered if you had to replace the batteries. The very early leafs are down to about 70% now (10 years old) but they didn't have ANY battery temperature management nor did they have buffering. So the original leafs were 22KWh battery size and that's what you used. My Soul has a 67KWh battery but only 64KWh useable - they buffer off the top and bottom end so the battery doesn't deteriorate. I'm 9 months in and the last SOH (State of Health) I had done on the battery showed less than 0.01KWh drop off in 9 months (might just be down to the measuring it was that small).
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I was kinda going by what Nissan themselves say. I guess as yet EVs haven't been around long enough to really get a feel for the likely average battery life. I have, however, heard of one Leaf owner that required a replacement battery after about 6 years. This was done on warranty, I understand. I suspect as old EV's start to fail, we will simply be told that technology has moved on and newer ones are much better, so we will never really know how that 1-3 year old EV will likely fair as it ages, only that it should be better than the ones that are failing at that time.
 
kashurst said:
Apple have signed up to build EVs with Hyundai - If I still owned Tesla shares I would be selling them soon. Technology wise Tesla will soon be surpassed and charge speeds/battery life will switch to 800/900 V systems used very effectively first by Porsche, and now by Hyundai - less current, less heat.
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So, how long from Apple’s signature to a car charging on my driveway ?
 
madabouttheboat said:
I was kinda going by what Nissan themselves say. I guess as yet EVs haven't been around long enough to really get a feel for the likely average battery life. I have, however, heard of one Leaf owner that required a replacement battery after about 6 years. This was done on warranty, I understand. I suspect as old EV's start to fail, we will simply be told that technology has moved on and newer ones are much better, so we will never really know how that 1-3 year old EV will likely fair as it ages, only that it should be better than the ones that are failing at that time.
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There is more and more data coming out as the EV population grows. I think there are now millions of EVs - China has gone nuts for them. There are a lot of Teslas with 200 - 300, 000 miles with their original batteries. Nissan had a few issues with one particular battery generation (the 2nd I think) that did suffer premature failures, not helped by a poor cooling system. Nissan used air cooling whilst everyone else uses liquid cooling. Other makes seem to do well.
 
kashurst said:
There is more and more data coming out as the EV population grows. I think there are now millions of EVs - China has gone nuts for them. There are a lot of Teslas with 200 - 300, 000 miles with their original batteries. Nissan had a few issues with one particular battery generation (the 2nd I think) that did suffer premature failures, not helped by a poor cooling system. Nissan used air cooling whilst everyone else uses liquid cooling. Other makes seem to do well.
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That's good to hear. The trouble is that when people want to talk about EV's in a good light, they often talk about Tesla. Most of us will not be buying Tesla, so we need to hear more about Nissan, Kia and other run-of-the-mill EVs.

Despite OTP figures, and my own come to that, there is still an up front pricing issue. In my example, where 9 years of ownership was more cost effective with an EV, there was still a huge extra upfront lump of money to find. Admittedly I just googled quickly to find a couple of representative vehicles, and hopefully found some average examples. The EV was £17k, the diesel was £8.5k. I needed to keep them for 9 years and do 10K miles PA to make the EV cost effective. Had it been 5 years at 10k miles, or even 9 years at 5k miles per annum, the diesel would easily have won out.
 
I suspect Tesla's problem is the car itself is an afterthought, it is all about the technology for them. And it is good technology, shame about the cars!
 
madabouttheboat said:
That's good to hear. The trouble is that when people want to talk about EV's in a good light, they often talk about Tesla. Most of us will not be buying Tesla, so we need to hear more about Nissan, Kia and other run-of-the-mill EVs.
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I think the biggest producer of plug in electric vehicles as pure electric and hybrid is actually BMW - but they rarely get discussed - BMW are bringing out 25 pure EVs over the next few years - none cheap, but they will/do work really well. Eventually these BMWs and VW ID3s and all the various Skoda/Audi/SEAT derivatives will come through the customer chain. A new ID3 is about £30K (ouch) but in 5 years I guess they will be £7 - £10K depending on mileage/spec and they should still be good for a very long time. And if required repairable.
 
gordmac said:
I suspect Tesla's problem is the car itself is an afterthought, it is all about the technology for them. And it is good technology, shame about the cars!
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I never understood why Tesla decided to build their own cars in their own factories. Seemed an unneccessary risk and complexities to solve that other manufacturers have already resolved a long time ago.
 
kashurst said:
No idea, but you can now order a Hyundai Ioniq 5 - with 800V charging.
Hyundai IONIQ 5 | The Electric Car Revolution Is Here

The Apple car will apparently be based on the same chassis, battery technology and motors and built by Hyundai - so the paint won't fall off.
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Strong on hype short on facts. When will it exist how much will it cost will it do as well in the real world as the designers say?
The problem is, is that the Tesla is actually buyable (faults and all). Just as the Ioniq 5 finally arrives, the latest greatest will be on the drawing board. So how can I possibly buy something as dated as the Ioniq5. I’ll be at the end of my battery life before I get an EV
 
Hyundai are talking about £45K - not exactly cheap but very fast charging. I like it - it reminds me of the 1980s Lancia Delta.
At the moment the world of EVs is evolving rapidly. Fortunately because they run on electricity the chargers being installed now are unlikely to be obsolete for a long time as the connectors have been standardised and the chargers are software controlled so can be modified or adapted to suit new charging criteria.

I am still very happy with my i3 which is technology from 2013. The main changes coming through will affect range and charge speed. Unless you do a lot of regular long distances does it matter that much hpwfast it takes to charge. Range will just keep getting better although 300 miles seems to be a target for many now.
 
gordmac said:
I suspect Tesla's problem is the car itself is an afterthought, it is all about the technology for them. And it is good technology, shame about the cars!
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Its about the battery not the tech.....

Elon doesn't want to make cars, he wants to be the worlds battery supplier....

Apple deal with Hyundai I believe has collapsed due to it being leaked.
 
Bouba said:
Strong on hype short on facts. When will it exist how much will it cost will it do as well in the real world as the designers say?
The problem is, is that the Tesla is actually buyable (faults and all). Just as the Ioniq 5 finally arrives, the latest greatest will be on the drawing board. So how can I possibly buy something as dated as the Ioniq5. I’ll be at the end of my battery life before I get an EV
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But that is true of a computer, a tablet, your ice car (the new golf is out, they are already designing the replacement.

Just buy the best one for now.

The consensus in the EV world is that about 200m range is the cut off between an EV being truly an easy daily use car and something you have to think about owning - anything 250+ is brilliant
 
As a rule, Tesla, Kia, Hyundai are the most efficient (miles per KWh) and manage their batteries best, and Nissan and Renault the worst. But its unfair to pick on Nissan because the were first to market they were bound to find the problems first.

I think the new Leaf is a liquid cooled battery array. You want that, and a car that can preheat its battery pack for max battery life and max range.

I know some with the first Soul EV (not the new model) who are still getting pretty much the same range now as when it was new.

I would be gobsmacked if these new batteries didn't last 15 years, perhaps a slightly reduced range in the last 3years?
 
ontheplane said:
But that is true of a computer, a tablet, your ice car (the new golf is out, they are already designing the replacement.

Just buy the best one for now.

The consensus in the EV world is that about 200m range is the cut off between an EV being truly an easy daily use car and something you have to think about owning - anything 250+ is brilliant
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I think we can compare the ev market to the computer market in the 80’s. The fear of buying yesterday’s technology leaves the potential customers with hesitancy. I expect the market to mature and to be like the ice car market. All cars are more or less equal. But I can’t wait that long
 
ontheplane said:
I would be gobsmacked if these new batteries didn't last 15 years, perhaps a slightly reduced range in the last 3years?
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I guess that brings us to another issue. As well as my everyday car, I also own a 4x4 I use for towing, a van I use for work and I have an old school Ford in the garage as a bit of weekend fun. These cars are 17, 18 and 32 years old. All still run on their original engines and gearboxes etc, none have needed any serious money spend on them beyond normal wear, tear and service items. While electric would work for my everyday car, purchase cost aside, even with a 15 year battery lifespan, all my other vehicles would either be scrap or need maybe £5k thrown at them for a replacement battery. They are all roadworthy, have a current MOT and will probably keep going for on indefinite period without large expense. I want to love the idea of EVs, I really do, but I just keep seeing issues that I can't seem to work around.

Even with my everyday car, I imagine a trip to see my wife's relatives. This is about 150 miles away. A decent EV will get me there, but I will have to stay all day, maybe overnight, to get a full charge to get home. An EV means spending more time with my inlaws!!!!!! (yeah I know. I can charge at a service station)
 
madabouttheboat said:
I guess that brings us to another issue. As well as my everyday car, I also own a 4x4 I use for towing, a van I use for work and I have an old school Ford in the garage as a bit of weekend fun. These cars are 17, 18 and 32 years old. All still run on their original engines and gearboxes etc, none have needed any serious money spend on them beyond normal wear, tear and service items. While electric would work for my everyday car, purchase cost aside, even with a 15 year battery lifespan, all my other vehicles would either be scrap or need maybe £5k thrown at them for a replacement battery. They are all roadworthy, have a current MOT and will probably keep going for on indefinite period without large expense. I want to love the idea of EVs, I really do, but I just keep seeing issues that I can't seem to work around.

Even with my everyday car, I imagine a trip to see my wife's relatives. This is about 150 miles away. A decent EV will get me there, but I will have to stay all day, maybe overnight, to get a full charge to get home. An EV means spending more time with my inlaws!!!!!! (yeah I know. I can charge at a service station)
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Perhaps the in-laws will stop inviting you after you keep stealing their electricity
 
There's a YouTube channel called TFL that I really like. They ran a Tesla Model 3 and one of them pranged the Tesla slightly whilst trying to back it into a garage. The ensuing saga was eye-opening to say the least.

Just type "TFL Tesla Repairs" into the YouTube search box to see every episode of the repairs debacle or type "TFL EV" to see a whole bunch of EV testing, some of it just silly fun but most of it very real world. They're mainly Colorado and Canada based so not a friendly environment for EV's and you also need to remember that their SUV's and trucks are probably two sizes larger than the UK but they still test the "sub-compacts" and it's surprisingly relevant to the UK.

Link to all the Tesla repair videos

 
madabouttheboat said:
I guess that brings us to another issue. As well as my everyday car, I also own a 4x4 I use for towing, a van I use for work and I have an old school Ford in the garage as a bit of weekend fun. These cars are 17, 18 and 32 years old. All still run on their original engines and gearboxes etc, none have needed any serious money spend on them beyond normal wear, tear and service items. While electric would work for my everyday car, purchase cost aside, even with a 15 year battery lifespan, all my other vehicles would either be scrap or need maybe £5k thrown at them for a replacement battery. They are all roadworthy, have a current MOT and will probably keep going for on indefinite period without large expense. I want to love the idea of EVs, I really do, but I just keep seeing issues that I can't seem to work around.

Even with my everyday car, I imagine a trip to see my wife's relatives. This is about 150 miles away. A decent EV will get me there, but I will have to stay all day, maybe overnight, to get a full charge to get home. An EV means spending more time with my inlaws!!!!!! (yeah I know. I can charge at a service station)
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I agree ICE cars do go on a long time - but I've saved £2000 in fuel this year, so in 15 yrs i'll save £30k, and that will buy a new battery!

As to a 150 mile trip, yes you might not do both ways in one hit - but plug in at relatives and it won't be a problem, or a quick 15 min stop on the return leg will do it - and it would cost a lot less......
 
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